www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology SYRIAN ORTHODOX AND SYRIAN CATHOLIC BAPTISM

I propose you to compare theese pictures from the celebration of the sacrament of Baptism at a Syrian Orthodox and a Syrian Catholic Church of the State of California. In the pictures of the Catholic baptism you will observe that (some of?)our Syrian Catholic brothers do not celebrate anymore the Holy Liturgy towards the East. How can you explain the diferences in the pictures taking into account that the diferences between the two Churches are supposed to be only dogmatical? The fact that someone is in communion with the Church of Rome should not mean to leave someone's own tratition to adopt the liturgical traditions of the Church of Rome? Why do the liturgical diferences between Orthodox and Eastern Catholics becoming more and more? Does this phaenomenon help the union between Orthodox and Catholics? Think about it while celebrating the week of prayer for the unity of all the Christians. Yours in Christ.

http://dorgalli.com/pictures406.htm

http://dorgalli.com/pictures380.htm

How can you tell which direction is East in those pictures?

Although many Syriacs in the West do celebrate the "wrong" direction, the Churches in the MidEast usually don't - this is because (and please, don't take this as an excuse, but as an explanation) the Syriac Churches in the West are commonly mission churches and they have to use either Chaldean, Melkite, Maronite, or Latin parishes.

Do you know whether Sacred Heart Syriac parish is a parish they built for themselves or is it a temporary use parish?

That said - the Syriac Orthodox in the West are also strangely adopting the western practice of "first communion." This is even without being attached to Rome. Traditionally baptism/chrismation is supposed to occur 40days after the birth of a male child and 80days after the birth of a female child, I don't know why the kids in these pictures are 10 or older.

I'm not sure about other traditions and Baptisms, but some of those pictures look like they're from a Bachelor Party!

Hehehehe..I understood your post after a quick scroll to the bottom photos of the reception!!!

As I understand it, this is a common form of entertainment at Middle Eastern/Lebanese parties...

(Looks like it's alot more fun for the men than the women though!)

Alice, who as Moderator must remind us all to get back to Fernando's topic, which was a serious and religiousy significant one....

I was going to say something about that, too...but some people weren't too happy about what I had to say about that swing-dancing nun at WYD, so I decided to stay mum!

Logos Teen

Good grief! While the service at Saint George's seems to have been significantly better, nevertheless both sets of pictures bear witness to two depressing phenomena:

a) Francofolie! The French influence was overwhelming among the Christians of the Middle East - hence the "sacred heart" devotionalism and certain other items;

b) the misunderstanding that Baptism is some sort of social event for the extended family - the gathering is more important than the sacrament, which is why in both sets of pictures the neophytes are clearly being baptized at an age much older than they should be. I have known "devout" people from this sort of background to wait even five years or more to have "important" family members present for the Baptism of a child. Nothing against families, but this is ridiculous and shows a deplorably bad catechesis.


By the way, I have never attended a bachelor party - but the lissom and nubile young woman in the photographs was dressed as if she was about to be baptized herself!

Incognitus

The busienss of putting off baptism is quiet common here in Australia among the Greeks and a few others. The putting on of a big lavish party is sadly more important than the sacrament. Orthodox clergy sadly dont seem to be doing much about it.

I dont think I could tell from studying the photos that there was any indication which way the Catholics celebrated the Liturgy. The Orthodox clergy certainly looked smarter in the traditonal vestments etc and their altar looked nicer. their ceremony left the catholics for dead.

Sadly salvation comes through the French is deeply engrained in the Catholic churches of the Near and Middle East, hence the slavish copying of anything western (even the bad taste).

Le tricolore seems to be actually emanating from Christ in the first set of pictures.

Andrew

I'm about ready to convert myself!

Perhaps an idea for the evangelization forum?

+T+
Michael
that sinner

I think we should firstly consider why these diasporal Syriac Churches postpone their administration of the Sacrament of Baptism?

It appears that the postponement or the delay is common to both the Catholic and Orthodox counterparts.

To me it is, therefore, "cultural" and not the effect of latinization, Francophile or not! :p

Amado

I have a feeling that although the parish is a Syriac Catholic one, the priest and liturgical rite they were using are Maronite. Usually, the Syriac Catholic priest would (should) have his head covered, the altar would be stepped, and there would be a curtain used to hide the altar. Also, no one but the priest, deacon, and altarboys would be allowed to walk in the sanctuary (and with the shoes off). Somethings not right here.

That is the "icon" of The Divine Mercy as revealed to St. Faustina Kowalska in the late 1930s. The red rays represent the blood that flowed from Our Savior's wounded heart and the Holy Eucharist. The white (pale or sometimes bluish-white) represents the water that also flowed out of His heart at the crucifixion and Baptism. It is a recent apparition with the full backing of the Vatican since 2000 AD, now the Sunday after Easter is known as Divine Mercy Sunday. I would assume that Eastern Christians would have no problem with the devotion and the Chaplet, especially since it ends with "Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One have mercy on us and on the whole world," repeated 3 times.

www.thedivinemercy.org [thedivinemercy.org]

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/

Dear Michael Thoma,
Althoutg who is the priest or which is the Church is not important for me (people in the pictures would not feel so good if they knew that had become one of the discussion topics in this forum) they he priest is father Yousif Abdulmasih Habesh and the Church is SACRED HEART CHURCH (10837 Collins Street North Hollywood CA) both of the Syrian Diocese. See

http://www.syriac-catholic.org/Parishes2003.htm

For a Maronite baptism see
http://www.dorgalli.com/pictures327.htm

Dr. Eric,

As has been mentioned several times, it isn't that Easterners "have a problem" with the devotion itself - it is that we have our own devotions that are being ignored when Latin/Western ones are introduced in its place. How many parishes forget to pray the Saphro or Ramsho, while actively promoting publically praying the Latin devotional Divine Mercy?

Precisely!

+T+
Michael