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I don't know how many of you have seen this, but I checked out this website [greece.org] for the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria. I checked it once before, but having checked it again, if you scroll down about half way, you'll see in the middle of the page a couple of links. If you have RealPlayer, you can listen to two half hour long recordings of their seminary choir. I have made out English and Greek hymns, but in addition to those, hymns in whatever language it is that they speak in Kenya (unless it's Greek and I don't know it). Whatever it is, I think it sounds great.

Yes, I think it�s great. Some years ago, the Patriarchate of Alexandria was very weak and with a very small number of hellenic believers, but since the election of the former Patriarch, the church of Alexandria led an enormous project of missions in the African continent and it's now one hope for the future (they have native clergy and the Orthodox church is now part of the evangelization of the African people). The missionary church of the future.

Hey, some stuf about the see of Alexandria.

The list of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchs:

http://www.gopatalex.org/popes.html

The list of the Coptic patriarchs (I can see when the unity got broken):

http://www.saintmark.com/topics/synexarion/popes-of-alexandria-chron.html

Yes, the native language is used in the chanting from what I can tell. I only listened very briefly to this, and it reminds me more of African Roman Catholicism than Orthodoxy from the musical angle, but this is my first impression, listening to only a few seconds of it.

I believe the true spirit of Alexandria is Coptic, not Hellenic. I use the Ethiopians as the template for any future evangelization in Africa. I am not a fan of the Roman Catholic spirit on that continent, (particularly its NO flavor; regardless I'm not much a fan of the once Tridentine Africa, either. [I know a charming middle-aged lady from Senegal who goes TLM] In retrospect the Roman Church only seems to fit a little in such African countries because of their interaction with the colonlizing Europeans), especially given how its relations with the indigenous culture and pagan religious customs can run the risk of being an experiment (sometimes dangerous) more than a non-heterodox healthy, embracing between the Church and the culture, such as the case is in Ethiopia.

If there is any missionary activity to be done, the Coptic spirit of Alexandria is required, with the Ethiopians as the perfect example of true Coptic African Christianity (I'm nauseated by NO Latin Africans going on about their "African Christianity" lunacy or their bogus "African spirit". If you want genuine African Christianity and spirit, head to what the Rastfarians call the promised land and see it for yourself) Ethiopia is the proper example of African Christianity and spirituality, not the artificial RC kind that sometimes entails an unhealthy contamination of religion by paganism at the level of freak experimentation, and in my opinion not the Hellenic kind either.

The Syriacs and Copts eventually became Byzantized, and the Byzantine patrimony is a great treasure. However, I find consolation in the presence of the Churches in the Middle East that truly exhibit the spirit of the Churches of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch. Dr. John has mentioned the Constantinopolitan family ceaselessly, and indeed we Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox are, no doubt so spiritually to an extent, but above all we are Antiochian, and were the non-Chalcedonian Churches not present today, and I had to choose between the existance of Byzantine Churches, or those adhering to the Alexandrian, Antiochian, and Jerusalemite liturgical traditions, in those lands under those three territorial jurisdictions, I would choose the latter. From a historical perspective, I wish that those three Churches that accepted Chalcedon never underwent Byzantization and remained identical in rite to their non-Chalcedonian counterparts. In the context of the present, I fully accept the existance of both rites, the Byzantine and the native, in those territories. However, if it came to what would be considered the respective "traditional territories and lands" of evangelization for these three jurisdictions, I would not be in favor of the Byzantine ritual traditions spreading as their presence was a result of Constantinople's influence over the three Chalcedonian Patriarchates. Instead I would wish the proper ritual traditions of Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria to spread in the missionary territories of these three Churches. I don't like the thought of Byzantine or Latin Christianity spreading in Africa. Coptic and Ethiopian Christianity is the kind of model for Africa I have in mind. That would be one BIG Church. And Mor, sorry my friend, but it would HAVE to be Chalcedonian also. ;-)

In IC XC
Samer

Aww, Samer, here I was all happy with everything you wrote, and then you had to throw a wrench in the thing. :p

Seriously, though, our theology and your theology are virtually the same...you guys just have your way of teaching it, and we have our way, and both ways make sense to our respective traditions, but to mix and match probably wouldn't. So why we'd have to be "Chalcedonian" is beyond me.

If we recognise that Chalcedonian theology is completely Orthodox (and I think all the Oriental Orthodox Churches agree on that point...I know at least the Syrians and the Armenians agree), and if most Chalcedonians (I know at least the Catholics feel this way) accept our theology as Orthodox, then why do we need to change our theology to suit all those of the Byzantine tradition who say we need to be Chalcedonian? We might as well add the Filioque in the Creed too, or latinise or byzantinise our liturgical rites.

With all due respect, my brother, my friend, I must disagree. I still love ya though!

Mor, a Chalcedonian in my book is one who accepts Chalcedon as orthodox. Not updating the texts on the doctrine in question with Chalcedonian terminology isn't a thought I don't entertain.

It's acceptance of the Council that I find important.

.....I'm a king's man you know. Aaashal Maleek!

When's the last time you fine Indian folk had a maharaja? Is there a Thomist approach to swearing fealty to one?

In IC XC
Samer

Well, Samer, by that definition, you may call me a Chalcedonian anytime, for I recognise Chalcedon as orthodox in teaching. But you must recognise our saints...like Severios and Dioscoros. :p

As for a Maharajah, we already have one. After India got its independence from the British, all the Maharajahs gave their territories to the new nation. So they are still around, royal families and all, but have no power...they are, more or less, a cultural institution which we don't hear about often even *over there*, much less here in the States. As for any ways of swearing alleigance proper to us, I don't know...if there is, I doubt it's been used in a long time. But since the Maharajahs considered Syrian Christians as a particularly honourable people, we were given privileged status in the kingdom, and so I assume there must be something.

Rome has less troubles in accpeting that the Non-chalcedonians, and the Non-ephesian churches are Orthodox. The Chaldeans still venerate St. Theodore of Mophusetiya as a saint and they celebrate the "hallowing of Mar Nestorius".
The Eritrean Catholic Church (Eastern Rite) venerates Pilatus as a saint, and of course S. Dioskoros (but St. Frumentios is still the most important saint of Ethiopia).
I'm not sure about what you said (about the copts). I think they do recognize the validity of the Sacraments of the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church, as well as the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Dear Remie,

The Coptic Orthodox Church recognises the sacraments of all the other Oriental Orthodox Churches, with whom she is in communion with. In addition, I know that they accept the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. If they accept the sacraments of the RCC, that's news to me, since I've always heard that they accept Catholic converts into the Coptic Church by re-baptism. I hope you're right on this, and I'm wrong.

I've also heard that they accept RC converts by re-baptism and that they do the same thing with Eastern orthodox converts. They say that thgeir sacraments are valid if administrated t RC, but they are unperfect if someone converts to Coptic Church. In the USA and Britain, many Oriental Orthodox children study in catholic schools.

Here an article about Orthodoxy, anticatholicism and other things:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ134.HTM

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Remie ]