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Hello. I am, (and always have), having a hard time trying to make sense out of the doctrine of indulgences. I know we suffer as to be brought closer to Christ. I know we pray for the dead and our prayers help them. But this is much different than removing what one has coming to them. I don't see a difference from the Lord's mercy and His justice. As I see it we are forgiven (mercy) but we still need to, of our own free will, remove ourselves from sin and choose good in every temptation. Someone elses good can not erase the grime in my heart although it can be a strong influence in my choice. Merits is the problem. How can someone elses merits change my soul? I have to choose the good from my own free will otherwise it's a sham. This is justice. The idea of merits sounds a lot like getting a city job in Chicago- if you know someone you're in. I hope you can help me in this real snag for me in my faith. Thanks.

These should help you to understand the Roman Catholic teaching on 'indulgences'

BIBLICAL OVERVIEW OF PENANCE, PURGATORY & INDULGENCES [ic.net]

A PRIMER ON INDULGENCES [cin.org]

God love you
Myles

PS) Sounds like your queries pertain more to the Primer but I posted the first link just as a short intro.

Thanks, Myles. I'll give it a read.

Well, I have read the primer on indulgences and I still find it absurd. If my 13 yr old son who listens to rap music and reads bad comics wants to get a job as a museum curator and the board of directors know and like me because of my good reputation and I 'intercede' for my son to get the job and he gets it that doesn't mean he is going to recognize good art when he sees it. It means i've done an injustice to the museum and to my son. To be 'just' is to let him see on his own his error and choose the better. 'Punishment' is not a bad thing it's a good thing. If i don't punish my kids when they misbehave i am cheating them. I do not see the point of indulgences.

You may also disagree with the reaction of the father to the return of his prodigal son, who, after all, had squandered his entire inheritance on decadent living, and only returned home because he was hungry. Not only did the father NOT punish his son in any way, he killed the fatted calf and threw him a party!

Kind of indulgent, don't you think?

Asking about indulgences in an eastern forum might not be the best place to get answers. Indulgences have historically been more of a Roman, or Latin Rite, Catholic item. I would think the Latin Church would be the best place to get answers on that subject.

Are you suggesting that they are relative? They are either true or not. East or west has nothing to do with it if it's true. Maybe it's called something else in the east but it must be in both to be what it claims to be.

Hello Theist Gal, I'm not questioning the awesome mercy of God. I'm questioning getting in on someone elses goods. The prodigal son didn't appeal to some favor or merit of someone else to return. No, he 'came to himself' and headed to the father ready to be as a servant if need be.

I am suggesting that the whole set of teachings on indulgences has changed from before Vatican II. Paul VI re-wrote the rules on indulgences when he issued the "Enchiridion of Indulgences - Norms and Grants" in 1968. In the east, we pray for the dead - period. That whole system of days and years of indulgences was Latin legalism at work, although the Latin Church doesn't use those anymore, either. As an eastern Catholic, I pray for the dead. God does what he chooses for their benefit. Because we know from scripture and tradition that it is a holy thing to pray for the dead, we can trust God's mercy - without, I might add, ensnaring him in a spider web of legalism.

I'm really puzzled by what you mean about "getting in on someone else's goods" re: indulgences. Whose "goods" are we getting in on? God's? Well, if He chooses to let us "get in on them," isn't that His prerogative?

I would also like to ask people to please respect the RC tradition, even if you don't agree with it - i.e., please stop describing legitimate teachings of the Church as "legalism" and "absurd". Thank you.

I don't know where you got the word "absurd" so I can't comment on that. I didn't say it. But it is a well known fact that the Latin Church, probably because of its background of scholastic theology, defines and legislates to very fine degrees. The East doesn't think like that. Many things to us are mysteries, and we are content to leave them at that. There is a difference in the mindsets and the approaches of the East and West. It has nothing to do with respect, but with the fact that the two lungs of the Church see things differently.

Dear Friends,

With the reform of the system of indulgences, they were just simplified for the good of the faithful.

Plenary indulgences can be obtained for e.g. half an hour's reading of Scripture, the Way of the Cross in Church or an Oratory, the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament etc.

Eastern Catholic Patriarchs/Primates could assign the plenary indulgence for the Way of the Cross to, say, the Akathist to the Passion of Christ or another service.

I've rediscovered indulgences and the role they play in my life in Christ!

And I came to this conclusion from Orthodox views on performing the "fruits of repentance" following a turning way from sin in confession.

Indulgences are part of the penitential experience of restoring our communion with God after confession of sin.

For me, they are a way to help mend what was harmed in our particular acts of sinfulness.

I am sinful, period and need to pray and grow in repentance always, to be sure!

But my own consciousness of a particular sin suggests to me that I need to do particular penance for it, that I've harmed not only my relationship with God, but something in the very Body of Christ that is the Church in which I have a relationship not only to the Holy Trinity, but all the members of the Communion of Saints.

We pray for one another and we bear one another's burdens, including, yes, the burden of sin and its consequences and effects.

Monastics would often share the penance that one of their brothers received for an infraction of their monastic rules, as an example.

An indulgence is a way the Church, using the keys of her authority, allows us to share in the works of sanctity that the Saints and all the members of the Church have obtained for themselves AND for the Church for time immemorial, in their prayers, suffering, etc.

So my share in that Grace through the intercession of the Saints and all others in the Communion of Saints, is a way in which the Saints take on my burden of penitence with me, so that I can partake of their love and concern for me - in accordance with God's Will - within the context of the Body of Christ.

Our prayers for others and all that we do in Christ by the Holy Spirit is not only for ourselves, but is also for others, for sinners, for the emotionally burdened etc.

When I receive a plenary indulgence, I receive the fullness of the remission of my sin AND its effects in the life of the Body of Christ and the Cosmos as well (not my sinfulness, which remains).

Yes, we do share the spiritual treasure of others.

Our own spiritual treasure that we accumulate in the life in the Spirit here is also meant to be not only for ourselves, but for "what is lacking in the Body of Christ."

I think St Paul said that, didn't he?

No, indulgences are an excellent instrument of Grace.

We should all be using them.

With everyone's indulgence, of course . . .

Alex

I got "absurd" from familyman's comment, "Well, I have read the primer on indulgences and I still find it absurd." I know you didn't say it, but you did describe the teaching as "legalism," which is a standard charge against Roman Catholicism by its detractors. It's considered disrespectful even though I'm sure you didn't intend it that way.

Dear Theist Gal, I am sorry for the use of the word 'absurd'. My vocabulary is pathetic. What i mean by getting in on someone elses goods is that i understand merits of saints to be available for me to bypass my just discipline or temporal punishment. I mean that: if i'm a habitual thief or a constant back-biter or a shameless adulterer and see my sin as a sin, go to confession and then say a rosary or read scripture for an hour than all the punishment or undoing of the damage i've done to others and myself is undone by an indulgence? I find that unreasonable and hard to understand. The prodigal son had to experience first hand the mistake he made before he truly turned around to come home.