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So it would seem your beef is not just with indulgences but with the penances given at confession. Before I continue, is that a fair statement?

Theist Gal, It has nothing to do with penance. It's not a beef as much as it's a clog. I'm simply saying that we learn from 'temporal punishment' and if you take our learning away then i wouldn't know heaven even if all the angels and saints merits got me there. It has to be a growing organic kind of thing. Does this make any sense. I'll get back to you tomorrow- my ride is here.

It's funny, some people think the Catholic Church is too harsh and demanding, and others think it is too lenient! We can't win for losing!

On re-reading your posts, it seems that what you're upset about is that the Church forgives people who you don't think ought to be forgiven. Maybe I'm oversimplifying but that seems to be the gist of your argument - that the Church has no business granting forgiveness, in the form of indulgences or penance, to habitual sinners. Is that correct or am I mischaracterizing your position?

I will look for your response tomorrow and hope your ride arrived on time.

Dear familyman,

Your point on a habitual sinner who seems to get a "free" ride via indulgences also points to confession itself.

The Good Thief who was crucified with Christ - he not only received forgiveness for his sins, but also the immediate and definite promise of eternal life - all in a split second and this from Christ's Mouth!

If an habitual sinner is truly repentant, then, yes, Confession wipes away the sin and the eternal punishment due for it.

There is nothing wrong with the Church applying her treasures, the treasures of the Saints and of the entire Communion of Saints, to helping us with the "fruits of repentance" that are needed after confession.

Perhaps an habitual adulterer et al. may like to think he or she can fulfill the fruits of repentance for their sins in a lifetime, but perhaps that is simply pride.

An indulgence does not make one a saint. Our state of sinfulness continues, even after confession, indulgences, penances etc. until the day we die.

It can continue into the next life too.

An indulgence is a BLESSING in that it ameliorates the situation of estrangement between God and ourselves.

And, one more thing, the "conditions" for a true plenary indulgence are not only Confession, Communion and prayer for the Pope's intentions.

What is still required is detachment from all sin.

As one priest explained to me, most of us have a long way to go before we can be said to be detached from the sin that bound us prior to our confession and repentance.

So even if we fulfill the requirements for a plenary indulgence - chances are very good it is NOT a plenary indulgence since our attachment to the sin, at whatever level, still remains.

It will take you and I a lot more effort in our spiritual walk in the life in Christ to get to that point of detachment from our passions.

So, don't worry about the "plenary" side of the indulgence just yet!

Hello Dolly!

What do you think of this post?

Alex

Excellent, Alex! In fact, you did such a good job I'm going to designate you "Official Defender Of The Faith"!

Thank you for your responses to my confusion. I think I have done a poor job conveying my problem and probably because i don't fully understand it myself. Orthodox Catholic stated that indulgences ameliorate our estrangement from God. I am not talking about FORGIVENESS or God's mercy or reconciliation. That is confession. I am talking about the reaping of our own harvest. I know we are forgiven completely- no matter how many times we sin. I'm saying that the results of my error are still here for me to deal with in my life and that is what i need to deal with. The good thief did pay for his crime- he was crucified. He was brought to heaven because he recognized the LORD and was truly sorry- but he did suffer HIS OWN punishment. He did not get off because of St Francis's merits or someone elses. I think we are confusing forgiveness with temporal punishment . It could very well be that i don't understand what the church means by temporal punishment. I don't think we need to be offended by every question to our faith. God gave us reason to use and clarify. The Truth is the Truth- we need not be afraid of inquiry. Thanks.

[/QUOTE] What is still required is detachment from all sin [/QUOTE] This is a tall order and by the time one gets to this place he's also not attached to indulgences. To speak of something so unreachable is confusing. To no longer be attached to sin is equal to no longer being attached to the temporal punishment for it so an indulgence is superfluous. Can this be so? One takes what comes as from the LORD if one is looking in His direction, otherwise it's self-deceit.

Good morning, familyman -

I was trying to think of something that might help you and came up with this - take it for what it's worth!

But it seems to me that you are very concerned about "indulgences" meaning that you don't pay for the results of your sins, but that someone else helps you pay for them, and that somehow that's unacceptable.

So let me ask you - do you follow that philosophy in other areas of your life? Like, let's say this morning you get a ticket for going 90 miles an hour in a 55 mile an hour zone. The judge sentences you to 30 days in jail for reckless driving.

However, just as you're about to start shopping for your striped pajamas, the judge says, "Tell you what, familyman, if you'll go to Traffic School for a few evenings, I'll waive the fine - and I won't even report the ticket to your insurance carrier!"

Is your response to the judge, "Thanks, Your Honor, but I would much rather go to jail than accept an 'indulgence' like that, which I didn't even earn! After all, I was speeding and I deserve to be punished! Lock me up and throw away the key!"

Or is it (like the rest of us), "Thankyou thankyou THANKYOU, I promise I'll never EVER speed again!!"

Thanks, Theist Gal. I'll think about that.

Best analogy on this topic I have ever heard. Thanks.

Your analogy fails in that we do speed and break the law again and again and again. So what will the judge say the second, third, fourth time he sees me? He will say you obviously have not truly learned your lesson. And if he did let me go all those times what would happen if the next time i had a serious accident involving others? I don't think we get to heaven on tokens.

So basically you're saying that God should institute a "three strikes and you're out" rule? That if you commit the same sin more than a certain number of times, you're out of luck in the forgiveness department? That seems kind of uncharitable.

I've read some of the postings on this topic. Yes I believe the living can repent after confession and get back to spiritual health. But what happens as a result of past actions will happen. The priest can forgive someone for living on junk food and gaining 100 lbs, but they still have to loose the weight.
The same should apply to indulgences. The laws don't change simply because one died. Suppose an active church member lived a christian life as part of his/her way of destroying an enemy and preventing the same from having interest in spirituality. The priest forgives him during a service, but the lifetime of deeds he did are still part of the permanant record. He will probably have to do something on the other side to make up for his evil intentions/deeds.

Theist GAl, Again- it has nothing to do with forgiveness. You seem to equate facing the results of our choices and learning from them as being condemned or unforgiven. I dont. If we are forgiven in Christ than the merciful thing is to learn from our choices (good and bad). To remove temporal punishment is to remove a piece of my own life. Life IS temporal punishment! I don't think there is a way to reconcile this doctrine with reason but thank you for your continued caring and kind responses.