www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Indulgences

Richard, Thanks for the response. To carry your analogy further an indulgence,the way i understand it, would mean that i would get weight loss merits from the saints and end up in heaven with all the perfect slim folk and, though i have been forgiven my fatness, will continue you eat like a pig and will soon find myself ashamed to walk on heavenly beaches having not conquered my own poor choice. The ball is in our own lap and there is no escaping this reality. This is what free will, or the image of God, in us means. We have a choice and our lives are the result of these choices. Be not deceived:God is not mocked;for whatsoever a man shall sow,that also shall he reap. Galations 6:7

I think your mistake is that you are assuming the "temporal punishments" you will be relieved of are those in THIS life. Indulgences are only intended to relieve the temporal punishment you would otherwise have to suffer in Purgatory. If you WANT to burn for an extra 5,000 years, that's entirely up to you - I personally would prefer to limit it to 1,000 years. But to each his own, I guess.

I have way too many comments on this subject to start on them all, I just don't have the time!

But yes, indulgences are about temporal punishment and relate directly to penitential efforts in this lifetime.

People have a hard time understanding that today because instead of 300 days in sackcloth and ashes or a year without communion we might be given "ten Hail Mary's and five Our Fathers" as a penance, or as I have noticed more than once: nothing at all!

Furthermore, to be granted an indulgence one must have a sincere, contrite and humble heart. The practice is intimately connected to confession and is a reflection of the churches power to "bind and loosen".

Naturally, the receipt of an indulgence would have a "spillover" effect by cleaning up ones need to expiate sin in the afterlife.

I have two thoughts on the subject I would like to bring up at this point:

First in my opinion, this entire thought process does not meld well with eastern theology of Theosis. The emphasis is certainly upon the dread punishment to come.

If one accepts the theology behind divinization the whole focus is far more positive. It's a difference in attitude about one's relationship with the divine. Eastern ascetic practices are "training" towards holiness, not punishment per se. The difference is like the difference between sweating it out in a gym to get healthy and sweating it out in jail to get free.

Secondly, as I recall the scholastic rationalization for the practice of indulgences is the stored up merits of the saints who have preceeded us. Like a treasurehouse in heaven, these merits can be dispensed by the church as required. I really think that no such rationalization is necessary, if the Apostles were given the authority to bind and loosen so be it, if we may pray to God for the well-being of others so be it, no further explanation should be necessary. This again is a reflection of the transactional thought process that went into the whole theory of indulgences, it sounds like banking.

We know God is just, there is no question about it we will get justice. What we are asking for is mercy and we appeal to the love of God like children waiting to be adopted. I suppose others don't feel this way but the theory of Indulgences always made me feel like I was applying for a loan and had to zip my credit score.

+T+
Michael

Dear Friends,

As I've been away sulking in a corner, I just came upon these last posts on this subject .

I don't see how indulgences can be taken to be about "punishment."

They truly are about leading us to live lives purified of sin, sinfulness and the "cosmic damage" our sins truly do cause.

I think one way out of the abyss here, if I may use a term like that, is to see a distinction between actual "sins" and "sinfulness."

Confession, fruits of repentance, indulgences et al. have everything to do with the sins we commit.

Over time, they may temper our inclination to commit sins.

But our "sinfulness" is something that is a kind of "state" that we are in as a result of Original Sin. This remains with us for us to combat and slowly raise via the process of Theosis throughout our lives.

Indulgences, even plenary indulgences, do not and cannot take away our need for ceaseless prayer, meditation, spiritual reading to deepen our divinizing union with God in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

They are about making amends for specific sins in our lives via "spiritual health."

How does one obtain a plenary indulgence today?

Reading scripture for half an hour, praying the Rosary in a Church or oratory etc.

These are practices that the Church has designed to help form life-long habits of obtaining Grace.

Indulgences are about helping us put the consequences of specific sins behind us so that we can get on with Theosis and living to glorify God incessantly in our lives and hearts - and be worried about our guilt in having committed specific sins less.

Dolly, how about that?

Alex

I agree wholeheartedly, my dear Alex!

But I think the whole problem is that we have a tendency to look at the abuses - and undoubtedly there have been way too many.

But even the abuses can be seen as pointing to reality. Remember the old story about the kid who was enthusiastically digging up the manure pile in the garden? "I just KNOW there's a pony in here somewhere!"

When it comes to indulgences, you just have to keep looking for that pony!