www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Defining "Ecumenical"

I thought that only ecumenical councils were infallible and binding on the faithful, but I can't get a clear answer from any website whether general councils are also infallible and binding. All I have really discovered is that an "ecumenical council" implies a worldwide council, or a council recognized by the whole Church. If Eastern Catholics view the last 14 councils as general but not ecumenical (because of the lack of Eastern Orthodox Churches which, some believe, are necessary to have a truly ecumenical council) then why are the 5th, 6th, and 7th councils viewed as ecumenical when the Oriental Orthodox were missing?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: is anyone stating that Eastern Catholic Churches officially believe less fully in Papal Infalliblity than the Western Church does? I have always heard from Eastern Catholics that the entire Catholic Church holds to the dogma of Papal Infalliblity. If this is not true, then I will not pursue becoming an Eastern Catholic, at least I don't think so.

ChristTeen287

*unless I learn something I didn't know before (which I probably will) that changes my mind about my last sentence*

"If Eastern Catholics view the last 14 councils as general but not ecumenical (because of the lack of Eastern Orthodox Churches which, some believe, are necessary to have a truly ecumenical council) then why are the 5th, 6th, and 7th councils viewed as ecumenical when the Oriental Orthodox were missing?" -ChristTeen287

reply: I think this is a legitimate an insightful question.

"I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: is anyone stating that Eastern Catholic Churches officially believe less fully in Papal Infalliblity than the Western Church does? I have always heard from Eastern Catholics that the entire Catholic Church holds to the dogma of Papal Infalliblity. If this is not true, then I will not pursue becoming an Eastern Catholic, at least I don't think so." ChristTeen287

reply: I agree with Anthony Dragani. Individuals statements of members and Bishops don't necessarily represent the official belief of the EC Churches. The same goes for Roman Catholics. Like he said, I doubt if many EC bishops would publicly state that they reject papal infallibillity. To me the beef isn't over the power of the Pope's office. Rather it is over how that power is to be applied in the universal Church. This, unlike other controversial questions (e.g. woman's ordination, contraception) is still open to discussion at the invitation of the Roman Pontiff himself.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Thanks Der-Ghazarian.

So DOES anyone know why the 4th, 5th, 7th, and 7th "ecumenical" councils are viewed as ecumenical by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches since the Oriental Orthodox Churches were already in schism (deservedly or not) or heresy or whichever? And now that the Oriental Orthodox are so close to reunion with Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Catholicism, haven't their leaders said that they will accept the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th councils as ecumenical? Could this not serve as an example for Eastern Orthodoxy accepting councils 8-21 as ecumenical? I dunno I'm just throwin' out random thoughts here that probably don't make much sense.

ChristTeen287

If Eastern Catholics view the last 14 councils as general but not ecumenical (because of the lack of Eastern Orthodox Churches which, some believe, are necessary to have a truly ecumenical council) then why are the 5th, 6th, and 7th councils viewed as ecumenical when the Oriental Orthodox were missing?

Good question. Of course, we OO's would say that they are not ecumenical, but I'd like to hear some sort of answer to this question. If the EO's don't want to accept anything after seven as ecumenical because they weren't represented, then why should we be expected to accept everything after Ephesus as ecumenical? Is there an actual reason for this, or is it arrogance?

And now that the Oriental Orthodox are so close to reunion with Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Catholicism, haven't their leaders said that they will accept the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th councils as ecumenical?

To my knowledge, we've only said that we recognise the orthodoxy of every council after Ephesus that the EO's recognise as ecumenical, but not their "ecumenical" nature. Of course, here is another good place to answer the questions above.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.



Especially if this insistence is coming from these people calling themselves "traditionalists' we know the answer to that question.

To my knowledge, we've only said that we recognise the orthodoxy of every council after Ephesus that the EO's recognise as ecumenical, but not their "ecumenical" nature. Of course, here is another good place to answer the questions above.

I am aware of the statements by our Church leaders (from various national Churches) stating that they are comfortable with most of these ecumenical councils after Chalcedon but they always say they will not simply accept Chalcedon itself in the sense of simply adopting it as is.

It is really difficult to have this discussion sometimes. I have noticed, more times than not, people simply present a caricature or a distortion of their "opponents' views and then they proceed to demolish it. I have seen people present what we as Oriental Orthodox supposedly believe (and is actually not what we believe) and then say what is wrong with it (from a perspective that is not that different from our own). Many times when I have responded I am simply told something like “well MY Church told me this is what YOU believe and I trust MY Church” or something in that fashion. It becomes impossible to hold dialogue with such people.

I really suggest that our Christian Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches get acquainted with the work of the late Father Dr. V.C. Samuel. He was an Indian Orthodox and without a doubt one of the greatest scholars produced by Oriental Orthodoxy in the 20th Century. His most valuable work in this regard is The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined an expansion of his PhD dissertation at the Divinity School of Yale University. He is very open minded and does not fall prey to this game of "accuse everyone else except your self.' He does however call a spade a spade and lets the chips fall down where they may.

In Christ,

Aklie Semaet