www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology 'Healing Service' held by lay 'Minister' Eileen Dropic at Greek Catholic Church?

byzanTN,

My picture of the James Church practice (Chapter 5) is that the people came to the Presbyters but the congregation prayed along with the Presbyers. Hence, it would seem that a joint effort would be in order but not one only led by laity.

Dan L

God does not only bestow his gifts on clerics, nor only through sacramental means. At least this lady isn't setting up shop as an independant evangelist, but is working with the Church.
This thread reminds me of the Pharisees criticizing Christ for healing on the Sabbath: how dare He violate their religious rules?! But who are you to criticize God's works of mercy?
It is true that the charismatic renewal was not always working from the heart of the Church, but in a time when the affective side of the Faith had been pretty much suppressed it was a lifeline for many. A disproportionate number of priestly and religious and lay vocations came from the renewal, and it eventually found its way into the heart of the Church.

Iconophile,

I pretty much agree with you.

Dan L

I don't agree, in the sense that much of the touchy-feely atmosphere in the church has come from the Charismatic Movement. It seems to me that movement is all about one's experiences and how one happens to feel the Spirit is leading him. One can be led by other spirits and one's own willfullness, as well as by God. I think it's been harmful, not helpful. Thats just an opinion and I am sure you will disagree. All that aside, God can and does give gifts to the laity, but he has also given great gifts to the ordained, if they would only use them.

Historically, any time of spiritual renewal is at the same time a period of spiritual ferment, with often a wild mix of good and evil fruits. That was true of 13th century Italy; besides the Franciscans there were other, heretical "poor men" running around. It was true of 19th century Russia: saints and madmen both wandered the countryside.
I am not saying there were not a lot of abuses in the heyday of the charismatic renewal; boy, do I know there were. I am saying that in retrospect it was a lifeline for the devotional life of the Catholic people.
This certainly doesn't imply an uncritical outlook: I live not far from Steubenville, the center of the renewal. I have tremendous respect for what the University has accomplished in the life of the Church. I cannot, however, abide their liturgies and avoid them at all costs.

I understand. I think the same.

A safe test of any "movement" is whether it engenders (small "o") orthodoxy.

The fruits of the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church are a mixed bag at best; the local independent pentecostal mega-church here began as a catholic charismatic prayer group. I have never witnessed it causing a strong yearning for orthodoxy, with the possible exception of some of the good things that have come out of Franciscan University of Steubenville.

Some folk seem to be concerned that sister Eileen is part of some charismatic movement; nothing in the initial notice nor the webpage I list below indicates that she is.

http://www.dioceseofvenice.org/pdffiles/pdf_parishbulletin/pb031024.pdf#search=\'Eileen%20Dropic%20of%20Our%20Lady%20Queen%20of%20Grace%20Healing%20...\'

In fact, in the RC parish in Florida, two priests presided and she only led the prayers, bless her.

The liturgy is the work of the people, not just the priests! Even Prof Dan seems to be saying this. blessing, wg

Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
First let me share with everyone that for those in the Greater Cleveland and Northeast Ohio area that their is an annual full celebration of the Mystery of the Holy Oil each Great and Holy Wednesday. It has seven or more priests and usually includes a Bishop as well. It is at St. Helena Romanian Byzantine Catholic Church on W. 65th St. in Cleveland. It is a beautiful celebration of the Holy Mystery, with many healings acclaimed.

Perhaps this celebration could take place more often!

St. Joseph Parish in Brecksville is NOT "progressive" it is simply the most latinized Byzantine parish in Greater Cleveland. It accommandates a whole variety of Latinizing practices that have been abandoned by other Byzantine Catholic Parishes. Perhaps they see this "lay Minister" to another way to prove their Catholicism.

I have anecdotal experience both of people exiting and entering the Catholic Church through the charismatic renewal. There was, to be fair, a hands-off attitude in the early years on the part of the clergy. The void was filled, in part, by Protestant preachers. Also, in the 1970s and 80s there was very little in the way of Catholic apologetics; Catholics were, by and large, unfamiliar with Scripture, longtime certainties were up for grabs in the post-conciliar craziness, and they were helpless in the face of Protestant proselytization.
On the other hand, I know too many people touched in a positive way by the renewal to discount it, though most of us have moved far beyond its borders and would not now be comfortable in a charismatic prayer meeting..
-Daniel

Good observations, I agree.

Fascinating perspective on this, Father. Thank you.

Dear Byzantn you said:

"I can accept a priest in this role because of an actual link to the apostles, but I don't see laity ever being able to claim the apostolic connection. Now granted, the prayer of a righteous person is powerful with God, as scripture tells us. I could see such prayer helping someone, but laity have no sacramental powers."

I say:

Now where does this place me, an ignorant woman. For the past 50 plus years, I would annoint my loved ones with the Holy Oil of Saint Nektarios and they were always healed. I could mention numerous times this happened. Actually, Saint Nektarios has yet to fail me.

Does this make me a healer? I doubt it. As for the intercessory power of Saint Nektarios...now that's a different story.

In Christ,

Zenovia

The other night on EWTN I was watching Father John Corapi, SOLT. Father Corapi is a VERY orthodox priest. Solidly Catholic. He was speaking of various gifts in the Church and mentioned that almost all of the folks that he knows that have the gift of healing are laity. He mentioned that his gift is preaching. He was pleased that the Holy Spirit uses whomever He wishes to touch those afflicted with His healing grace.
As another note: I would ask about the healing gifts of Blessed Brother Andre and the many Desert Fathers (Saints) who were not ordained but, using oil blessed by a priest, healed many people though their prayer and anointing.
Just my thoughts. Silouan, Her monk

Hello all,

First of all, I think that very few members of this forum are acquainted enough with the charismatic "phenomenon" in the Catholic Church to make an informed assessment of the situation.

I will start by stating, very clearly, that the Charismatic Renewal, as a movement, is in very good standing in the Church, it has a very clear and effective means of governance, very clear statutes, and has been very fruitful.

However, the Charismatic Renewal is not the only expression of the charismatic phenomenon within the Catholic Church. There are other groups and movements that have a similar expression of their spirituality but that, for one reason or the other, are not within the "jurisdiction" of the Renewal movement as an organization within the Church.

Some of the abuses that have been mentioned in this thread, such as the "blessing" of oils for annointing by people other than the bishop, are not frequently found in the Charismatic Renewal, but rather in some of these other, less organized, groups.

In the particular case of prayer services to ask God for healing of the sick, the Vatican has issued very clear guidelines as to how to conduct these services both in liturgical and non-liturgical forms, and the care that needs to be put in avoiding any confusion between the sacrament of annointing of the sick, other forms of liturgical prayer for healing and non-ligurgial/non-sacramental forms of prayer for healing.

The basic message is that all of these are OK, as long as confusion is avoided.

Although I have been a charismatic Catholic for many years now, and still consider myself to be one, I have always been very weary of the use of quasi-sacramentals such as "blessed" oil or "blessed" salt and other things that could confuse people into thinking that Catholic prayer is some sort of magic ritual.

These things have not been done by any Charismatic Renewal prayer group under my care, either directly as local parish coordinator or indirectly as deanery supervisor.

In our parish, we are currently experiencing the visit of a priest from Italy, who belongs to a group called "Koinonia of St. John the Baptist", which advertizes itself as a member of the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities (the "other" world-wide more or less organized charismatic movement, more radically "pentecostal" than the Renewal, and with more instances of abuses and rebellions against legitimate authority).

In the year he's been working in our parish, I have not been able to catch him in open heresy, but I don't like him. His group works too much like a cult for my tastes (they are divisive, secretive, their discipline is brutal interally, but too lax externally, etc.). When he preaches, he says too little, and always aims towards the emotions of the audience, never to their intellects.

I have not been more open in my criticism because we do not have a Spanish-speaking priest in our area, and he speaks an almost decent Spanish, so he's been able to serve the weekly Spanish mass (for which we are all very grateful).

I've read some criticism here that one of the errors of the charismatic is the belief that the faithful have the possibility to experience the mystical power of God directly.

What do you mean? How is this an error?

Yes, the Charismatic Renewal is all about a personal (although not individualistic) experience of the Risen Christ in our lives, through the power of the Holy Spirit, enabling and empowering the faithful to be witnesses of the Lord's Holy Resurrection in today's world.

What is wrong about that?

Yes, we do experience the many gifts of the Holy Spirit, and we use those gifts to build up the Church.

What is wrong about that?

Yes, we do have instances of abuse, of people using the movement for their own benefit, of people faking spiritual gifts for their own benefit, etc. etc.

This of course is wrong, but not unique to us.

In short, although some groups may, from time to time, go astray and even leave the Church, the Charismatic Renewal as a movement is a gift from God to His Church, pretty much like any other movement.

As such, we have our place in the Church, and we cherish that place, and we will do whatever it takes to keep it, and to fulfill the mission Our Lord has given us both collectively and individually, within the Church.

Far from what has been said here, there is an ever growing awareness in the Charismatic Renewal about the importance of orthodoxy and faithfulness to the Church.

We are not moving out, if anything, we are moving closer to the center.

Shalom,
Memo