www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Graceless Heretics?

Alex, I just read your last post--I offer you my own apology and accept yours.

One should NEVER make judgements or be turned off about a particular Faith based on an Internet Forum of all things!!!!!! As you must know, this is where many of our most extreme opinions and judgements are sometimes expressed (often because we don't see the other person and get an instant reaction or see the other's body language)
It is in the parishes that the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics are truly present!

Dear Latin Trad,

O.K., I see where you are coming from.

When our Orthodox friends say what they say about us, they are actually not passing judgement in nastiness, but are sincerely expressing what they actually do believe, and what their respective Churches' do believe, about us.

Some Orthodox Churches are more "ecumenical" than others, but, by and large, either you are Orthodox or you are not.

It was a view that we Catholics also shared throughout history before the days when one could be "pretty close to being Catholic, but not quite fully."

When Orthodox say our Sacraments are without grace, that is because of their theology of the sacraments where one must be in full communion with the Orthodox Catholic Church in order for the sacraments to be "effective."

I too got my back up against the wall when I first came across these views.

But that is the theological playing field.

It is markedly different from the current Catholic climate where we rate other denominations on a scale with those in full communion with Rome at the top and everyone else in descending order, depending on what they believe and "have."

But I'll say that I'm sometimes envious of the way the Orthodox are self-possessed in their own conviction.

I was once in training to become a Benedictine Oblate.

The Benedictines accept Protestants into their Oblate fold. Some of the Anglicans were actually "Higher" than some of the Latin Catholics I came across.

But then there were Evangelical Christians who wanted the many spiritual benefits of following a plan of spiritual life as the Oblates offer, but who balked at other Catholic devotions such as the veneration of the Most Holy Mother of God.

And that was fine until some of the arguments became quite nasty.

And one Lutheran woman actually turned on me because she perceived that I was trying to get her to say the Rosary.

Can you imagine? ME! Trying to force my religious practices on someone else!

O.K., so I still think that earned me brownie points in heaven . . .

(Can you go speak to ZoeTheodora and tell her I'm sorry? I think I can hear her sobbing in her room . . .)

Ultimately, it is a fine line we tread in these discussions.

But we shouldn't automatically assume, and I'm not saying you did, that the Orthodox are being nasty to us when they say what is their heart-felt understanding of the truth.

And we certainly shouldn't pelt them with patristic quotes in an attitude of self-defence.

You've passed another milestone in understanding Orthodox-Catholic misunderstanding.

(Is all that rustling I'm sensing really ZoeTheodora looking for more Kleenex?)

And we have to try and avoid the temptation to triumphalism toward the Orthodox - after all, we're the true Church, where do they get off anyway, and . . . oops!

See? I still have to work on myself . . .

I think the Administrator and Orthoman are the only two who really understand Orthodox-Catholic ecumenism.

I do my best, that's all . . .

Would you like a papal lapel pin?

Alex

Well stated. We need to respect one another�s positions. Respect does not mean agreement on all issues. I think that some of our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters who participate here make a mistake of expecting Eastern Christians to dialogue using only the theological language of Latin Catholicism. This just doesn�t work. One really needs to be multi-lingual when it comes to theology and accept that some theological concepts just don�t translate well from one theological language to another.

Hmmm�. Ecumenism is witnessing what you believe and respectfully working with others to love them into seeing that what you believe is true (or coming to a common understanding on issues you just define differently). Yes, what passes for ecumenism these days is often not really ecumenism (look at the WCC). But that is a topic for another thread!

Admin, with all due respect, do you think that's been going on here?

In response to Seraphim Reeves' (sincere) references to the Catholic Church as schismatic, heretical, without grace, and without valid Sacraments, I offered my understanding of the Catholic position. I never asked him or Alex or anyone else to use Latin theological language.

Regarding defrocked priests, there was genuine disagreement, and both sides presented their positions.

I think that the level of sensitivity to westerners here might need a little revising. It was we who were being told that our Sacraments are invalid; I took issue with that and became the automatic bad guy. Posts that say the West is without grace do not break "the rules," but posts that say the Catholic Church does have grace because it's the true Church do break "the rules"?

I'm not accusing Alex, Seraphim, the Admin, or anyone else of malice; I'm just asking for the leeway to defend my own Church when it comes under attack. Otherwise, like I said before, it's like being hit in the face over and over again while one's hands are tied behind one's back.

It should be noted once again that divisions amongst Christians are a scandal, but that there can be no easy solution without tackling the hard questions.

LatinTrad

You asked a question and got an answer.I dont get all bent out of shape about it. And yes I would love to continue to debate but I feel that it is all in vain.Poor Sinner Chad

But Alex, how does that justify it? When Bob Jones III says the Pope is the anti-Christ and the Catholic Church is the Whore of Bablyon, he is also "not passing judgment in nastiness" but "sincerely expressing what [he] actually [does] believe about us." I know this for a fact--I live in the Bible Belt, and I know folks from BJU who share Dr. Jones's views. (One very nice chap told me in all sincerity, "I'm not anti-Catholic. I'm just anti-Catholicism." Whew--well, that's a relief. :p )

I submit that sincerity does not justify bigotry. One can be sincerely bigoted. But it's still bigotry.

You say Latin Trad has expressed condescension toward Eastern Christianity. I haven't read all the posts in question, so I have no idea whether this charge has any validity or not. But even if it does, ISTM that "expressing condescension" is pretty minor compared with claiming that Catholic Sacraments are graceless. That goes a lot farther than mere condescension.

Yet you make excuses for Seraphim. Why? Isn't sauce for the goose also sauce for the gander? Shouldn't you also be trying to understand where LT is coming from? Just hypothetically--if you're going to make all sorts of excuses for SR, then why not for LT, too? It's only fair, right?

Seraphim represents the extreme position held by Old Calendarists. (If I'm not mistaken, he's a member of ROCOR.) You're justifying that? On a putatively Catholic board? I'm tempted to ask, "Whose side are you on, anyway?"

Well, nuff said! Love ya...truly...am just a bit flummoxed, thass all.

I sure wish there were a Byzantine Catholic board where it was safe to be Catholic.

Blessings,

ZT

Chad, I would love to continue discussing things with you and the other Orthodox, and with all the BC's (who are really the homeboys here). What I object to is that one side is allowed to argue their points, but when the other side tries to do the same, they are accused of breaking some set of "rules". That is not your fault, and it is not Seraphim's fault. Seraphim took my side on this issue, on another thread.

With love,

LatinTrad

The last time this subject came up, Orthodox Christians came to the defense of the Latins and called attention to the fact that there is a double standard on this forum, with Orthodox being allowed to say whatever they want, but Latins being accused of breaking the rules and being polemical, etc., etc., when they are only stating their position the same as anyone else. It has been presented that the Orthodox who are stating the rigorous school position within Orthodoxy aren't being nasty, but just presenting their position and what they believe. From what I can see, the Latins are doing the exact same thing, and not being nasty either. What happens is that they repeatedly get jumped on, and even more than one Orthodox Christian has noticed this, and even called attention to it.

By the way, I think that Alex made a sincere effort to be kind and understanding in his last post. I applaud him for this. When I see someone being soft hearted like that, it softens my heart as well, and reminds me to keep working on trying to be a better Christian, pleasing to our Lord.

Maybe I'm missing the logic here, ZT. How does the strict Orthodox position on the "validity" of groups outside of the Orthodox Church, which, if I'm not mistaken, is based on solid ecclesiological positions, the teachings of the Church Fathers, Scriptural principles, etc., compare with what I'll call the "Bob Jones crowd"? The latter is certainly bigotry, but how is the former equivalent to that?

Although I'm the orginator of this thread, I've been pretty uninvolved in posting. Rather, I've been reading everyone's (quite vociferous) opinions.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm probably the least biased person here. I am a mainline Protestant learning about Catholicism and Orthodoxy and about East and West. Everyone else I've run across in this thread is either Catholic or Orthodox.

I thoroughly agree with the Roman Catholics and Orthodox here that there is a double standard. I feel that LatinTrad's treatment has been of the most unChristian sort. It seems that, out of all the Christians here, the ByzCaths are the only ones who don't see the double standard.

It also seems to me that the discussion was going quite well between the Roman Catholics and Orthodox. Honesty, attempt to dialogue, and cordiality were all present and active. Then came the Byzantine Catholics (Alex, djs, etc.) who, IMHO, stirred up most of the consternation we see here now. I am NOT trying to point fingers; perhaps it has nothing to do with religious affiliation. Maybe Alex and djs both have brown hair and that's the link? Whatever it is, LatinTrad and ZoeTheodora have been treated disrespectfully and the honest dialogue that was taking place has now been hijacked.

I have never been offeded by the Orthodox position on Catholicism. Find me one of my posts that even hints at my thinking Catholics are being treated unfairly by the Orthodox position. The Orthodox Churches are entitled to their opinions, and I have great respect for them. However, the Roman Catholic Church is also entitled to its opinion, which, ISTM, is much the same attitude towards the Orthodox as vice versa, regardless of what some people may say about the "current attitude" of Catholicism is towards non-Catholic groups. Lastly, the Byzantine Catholic Church is entitled to its official position, if it has one that *officially* differs from that of the Roman Church and the rest of the Catholic Communion.

In short, EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions. Lots of opinions on something that is Truth simply means most everybody is going to be dead wrong while a few might be right. But it's useless and thoroughly unChristians to attack people. LatinTrad and ZoeTheodora have clearly been the victims of prejudice. This should be appallingly clear to anyone with an IQ greater than that of an orangutan.

I regret starting this thread. Perhaps after my post has been censored it can be closed.

Logos Teen

Thank you LT for your post and support. I was hoping that we could talk. I think we could learn alot from each other.I guess that I will continue to post and take flack.I just cant mince words because I dont think that I could convey the right meaning.
I think that we have come to eaches understanding of economy.But that doesent mean that we have to like it.

Dear LT,

Maybe we should not close the thread, but make the title more accurate by removing the question mark?

Or maybe make it more charitable, by removing the word heretic, as well as the question mark?

LOL--you're right! At least the Bob Jones crowd do not endorse Donatism, right? Whereas the "strict Orthodox" position presented in this thread has "Donatism" written all over it.

Seriously, though--can you tell me which Scripture verse or patristic source says that we Catholics have graceless Sacraments? Chapter and verse, please. I'd be very interested in seeing the citation.

Blessings,

ZT

P.S. Dunstan and LT, I agree--Alex's last post was charitable indeed.