www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology I like pews . . .

There has been so much intense and heavy discussion lately about the Liturgy, etc., it might be time to try to add some perspective.

I like pews. I really do. When my knee gets painful (from an old injury), I can sit down and still pray. Also, the old people of my parish --the people who have kept the parish going through thick and thin for the last 50 years-- can rest a bit too. And for everyone, it's good to be able to rest in the presence of God.

And it's not the end of the world, nor the end of the Church, to sit in a pew during parts of the Liturgy. No one loses their identity as a Byzantine Christian. No one stops believing in the Gospel.

There was a time, so I have read, when the iconostasis was a new thing. I'm sure plenty of people back then thought that Tradition was threatened and the sky would fall in. Now, it's a standard and uplifting part of the church building.

I think something similar is the case with pews. Clearly, we should be respectful in the presence of God, and clearly worship isn't a spectator sport. But it's also good to know that Jesus referred to Heaven as His Heavenly Father's home ("There are many rooms in My Father's mansion"), and He referred to His Father as our God and Father too. And one of the nice things about coming home to your Father's house is that He welcomes you in and He invites you to sit down . . .

It's good that we stand (or even kneel!) at different parts of the Liturgy: to remind ourselves that we are in the presence of Almighty God, our Lord, that our sins offend Him, that the means of our redemption was the Cross, and so on.

But I also think it is good to remind ourselves that God is not the boogeyman, waiting to zap us for any infraction. God is our heavenly Father, and we can also rest in His presence.

-- John

I don't think that anyone who is against pews(the way we see them now) would be against having pews along the sides and back for people to sit in. But the way that they are set up now is incorrect. There are many reasons, but the biggest one is that I defy anyone to do a proper prostration will in a pew. People have to go to the middle aisle or along the sides if there is room. If our churches were full like they should be it would be impossible to perform this. Many of our brethern in Eastern Europe have practiced like this for centuries and they walk to church. If your knee bothers you, you are right, there is nothing wrong with sitting down, but the configuration fo the pews is what is wrong, not the mere fact that they exist.

mc

Thats why the seating is where it is in Byz trad Churches. I also have not so fantastic knees these days from all that running in my past. They just done need to be in the same places as the RCs and the Protestants.

Pavel - I agree

but do you mean your knees or the benches

We have some pews but they are kept to a minimum as it should be. I agree with the posters here. Some pews are fine. If someday I get bored with the liturgy I can sit down in one and take a nap. I don't think that is going to happen.

Then again, I could get injured and need a pew along the walls someplace.

CDL

Very good! The pews not the knees

I find the pews to be annoying. With how much standing we are doing, it is frustrating to be stuck inside this tiny square, closed in by people on either side and chairs in front and back. It makes keeping the little ones focused much more difficult since they can't see anything other than backsides and can't move to any better location (every child can't possibly sit in the front pew). I find them to present practical problems, not theological ones.

Agreed - I have to say I heave a sigh of relief when I get out to Lourdes - OK there are chairs there - BUT they can be moved and I do move them

In my Parish we have old pews - wonderful old, very sold ones - BUT we only have 2 small [ ie narrow] aisles. I still don't know how they manage prostrations - I can't get there during the week.

I'm firmly of the opinon that we do need benches round the walls and some seating , chairs etc -.

I'll let you know how I have got on, if all goes to plan ,during Great and Holy Week 2007 - I'm told I'll be glad to sit when possible .

Before you think I'm a total wimp - I do chant 3rd and 6th Hours before DL when in France - so I am on my feet for a while

I really have a hard time (feel constricted and hampered) praying and worshipping in a church with pews (i.e. a Byzantine rite Church with pews).

For me, an essential part of byzantine worship is my participation in the worship and prayer by means of the "reverence" (or sign of the cross, or whatever you call it).

I just can't do it with a pew. I would (and have) hit my hand, hit my head, etc. And I'm just talking about the "small reverence" (sign of cross plus bow from the waist).

The other 2 types of reverences are impossible with pews.

or at least EXTREMELY weird - :rolleyes: as I've seen people prostrate themselves in the pews - but they end up prostrating north or south (i.e. sideways, facing away from the front (so not quite sure they are prostrating themselves towards whatever they want to prostrate themselves towards (plus they have to squeeze their bodies between the pew seat and the kneeler!

the only possible compromise that I have ever seen (not counting pews around the sides (because that's not a compromise but what I think is proper)) was in an old rite church, where they had some benches for some people, but they were spaced far enough apart so that people could EASILY make prostrations (straight ahead of them). And they make A LOT!!!!!! of prostrations. A LOT!

Herb

I see the utility of pews in the West, but have no use for pews in our tradition.

Benches along the ways are fine for those who can't stand.

John/Harmon - are you referring to pews as in the conventional style, with kneelers, or just benches which one could sit on if tired or infirm? Benches along the walls would serve that purpose and still allow the traditional interior sense of space of a Byzantine church.

Pews in the center of the Church ("knave" if you will) disturb the full ability or possibility of liturgical movement of services, and also inhibit the full offering of the Christian in praying with entire soul, mind, and body. I think the needs of the infirm or tired can be met in the way of benches along the walls for that purpose.
FDD

Interesting. You have all given me something to think about. I didn't realize that a lot of people actually bow when they cross themselves. At my parish, it is only me a few other people. And, pews don't get in the way of doing that. But, when some of you are writing about "prostrations," do you mean bowing while making the sign of the Cross? Or do you mean actually getting down on the floor and laying oneself flat, face down ?

-- John

FDD,

I meant benches along the wall. I find pews in the center of the naos get in the way of us being Byzantine Christians.

In Christ,

JJS

But how ? I don't mean to be petulant or a smart-alleck. Aside from laying face down on the floor (if that is what people mean when they say "prostration"), how do pews in the middle of the church building get in the way of being a Byzantine Christian ?

-- John

I once made the mistake of thinking someone was in perfect health - he certainly looked to be in perfect health - only to find out he had a severe heart condition. Appearances are often deceiving. I want the benches around the wall, and those who sit there should never be questioned about it. As I get older, I may occasionally need them myself.