www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News The [ true!] Order of St. Constantine the Great

The [ True! Yes, true! Why settle for a mere imitation?] Order of St.Constantine the Great!....or........"Titles, titles everywhere, but not a drachma to spend!"


www.new-byzantium.org/orderof.html [new-byzantium.org]


Basil the Bill the First

Autokrator Basileos ( in training).

Dear Bill,

Not to change the subject, but do you accept the sanctity of St Nicholas Romanov?

After all, you said you are an autocrat . . .

Alex

Yes, but I wouldn't lose my head over the issue. Thank God, Nicholas wasn't French.

But us Autocrats must stick together. There are so few of us, you know.

On the other hand, how many Autocrats can there be before we are forced to form a union and become...well...democrats?

Now! You have my permission to inhale.

Bill the Basil the First

Autokrator

What is this all about? Looks interesting.

Interestingly enough, I was wondering how stuff like this, and the Knights of Malta, Knights of the Holy Sepulcher, etc., work? How do you join any of these? Do you apply? Do they come for you?

Just interested, that's all.

If they do.....RUN!

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Bill,

So you do accept St Nicholas Romanov's sanctity . . . I think Kurt would like your personal photo for his dartboard (kidding, kidding).

The Order of Malta actually did have a Tsar as its head, Tsar Paul I who was appointed such by the Pope.

This Orthodox Order is quite legitimate and continues in its ministry to this day.

Alex

my first experience with the Knights of the Holy Sepulcher was at the Diocese of Jefferson City (MIssouri) Eucharist Congress held here in
Columbia two years ago. There was a big Diocesean Mass on the last day. The Knights of Columbus of course were first in the procession, and came in rank and file with their big plumes over-sized letter openers. After them came the Knights of the Holy Sepulcher with there Ladies by their side. THat was a sight to behold. There was a certain almost regal aire about them, and a solemn, but simple, splendor that was impressed on the minds of my wife and I. It seemed to me that they were among the few that understood the gravity of such an event as a Eucharistic Liturgy, much the more of one presided by the Bishop and most of his enterage of Priests and Diakons. They carried themselves with such dignity that I have never seen anyone before or since.

:p

Mor Ephrem,

Both the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes, and of Malta and the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem are prestigous orders and have very high standards for its members. Both require sponosorship by an accredited knight or lady. The Order of the Holy Sepulchre requires one to be a Catholic. Both are also very expensive. The fees and dues are a few thousand dollars. These are used to support the works of the respective Order: Hospitals and ambulance services for the Order of Malta and upkeep of the Holy Land churches for the Order of the Holy Sepulchre. Beware of spurious organizations using the names and/or symbols of the authentic Orders. The Orders websites are:
Order of Malta:
www.smom.org/directory.html [smom.org]
Order of the Holy Sepulchre: www.holysepulchre.net/ [holysepulchre.net]

Alex,

Tsar Paul was not appointed by the Pope, rather after Napoleon attacked the islands of Malta and nearly destroyed the Order, the true Grandmaster, Ferdinand von Hompeasch, and the remnant of the Order fled to Ferrara, Italy. While this was happening, Tsar Paul declared Grand Master Fra Ferdinand deposed and himself the new Grand Master also claiming sovreignity over the Malta islands. (Nice grab at a warm water port, eh?) The Pope did not recognize this illegitimate act. A wealthy knight donated his Roman palace to the Order and they have been based there ever since as the world's smallest sovereign state.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]

Dear Lance,

Yes, you are right and I stand corrected. The Pope never confirmed Tsar Paul's appointment, but the Governing Sacred Council of the Order of Malta certainly did, and the Pope did not question that. So he did approve it indirectly at least.

There were also Grand Masters of the Order whom the Pope approved of, but the Governing Sacred Council did not . . . So, as the Ukrainians say, "be wise with them!"

To show his good will toward the West, Tsar Paul I inaugurated the most tolerant period toward Eastern Catholics our ancestors have ever known.

Even Fr. Irenaeus Nazarko of the Basilian Order in his "Kyivan and Galician Metropolitans" who could not, by any stretch of the imagination could be called a friend of the Russian Orthodox, loudly praised Emperor Paul I as a "just ruler" for this reason.

The fact is that Emperor Paul represented those few Tsars who were not anti-Western.

He covered his Imperial Crown and himself with the white Cross of Malta and truly did what he could for the Order, including its Roman Catholic members.

Rome certainly recognized his leadership of the Order in his lifetime.

Emperor Paul I was assassinated, as we know, and he is locally venerated in Russia who constantly light candles before his tomb. Married couples especially lay flowers at his tomb and invoke him as a protector of marriage.

The Orthodox Order of St John continues to this day and receives the strong support of His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow. The Order is ecumenical and, in the spirit of Paul I, receives Christians of other denominations.

Holy Emperor Paul I of Russia, pray unto God for us!

Alex

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Alex,

Tsar Paul was "elected" by the Grand Priory of Russia, which was made up of Russian nobles,some French knights in exile, and Polish knights, and not the Sovereign Council. The history I have read states the French knights supported the Tsar because they thought he would in turn support their territorial claims on Malta. They pressured the Holy See to recognize him, but this never happened.

I make no judgement on the Tsar's intentions, which were probably well intended, but on the act itself which was illegitimate. One must remember that the Order of Malta is a complex entity. It is both a Chivalric Order, a Sovereign State, and a Religous Order. Knights of Justice, the highest division in the Order, are professed monastics who take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. The Prince Grand Master is elected from the professed Knights of Justice, which means that he must be a Roman Catholic. Only a Roman Catholic can be head of a Roman Catholic religous order. This in itself excluded Tsar Paul from any claim to the Grand Mastership. To present the Tsar as a true Grandmaster is like presenting an Italian Cardinal as the true Patriarch of Constantinople!

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

I think I'm about to have a massive attack of diarrhea.

All these secret 'societies' seem to have their origins in folks wanting to find a way to exclude other folks for either not washing either their clothes or themselves enough, or for not having very much money.

I'm sure that they feel that it's their 'right' to gather together in these 'societies' and to do whatever they do. Insofar as they do good works, OK. But inasmuch as they prance around in medieval regalia and adopt long-dead titles and assume to themselves prerogatives based upon their financial holdings and disbursements, then I think they're just playing perennial Halloween with an "I'm doing good" veneer.

Would Christ join one of these groups? Would Mother Teresa? Would St. Francis? Don't think so. Better to join some other group of charitable Christians who do good and keep their mouths shut. (I think Christ said something about this -- right hand, left hand. And don't let others know by boasting about what you do.) I kinda like the Odd Fellows for this reason. Their major thing was they were affluent folks who gave VERY freely of their resources to help the poor, the sick and the helpless -- and they were given the name "Odd Fellows" because this was considered "odd" or "stupid". I wish we had some "odd fellows" amongst our people, who would serve the needy and did it silently and secretly.

If one wants to do some good, then join a real charitable group; and if one doesn't exist in your parish, then START ONE!

"Knights" and "Ladies" indeed. It's just another ecclesiastical drag show. (And they don't look anywhere near as good as Ru Paul!) At least he can sing.

Blessings!

PS to Lance: You said: "Only a Roman Catholic can be head of a Roman Catholic religous order." What about the Basilian Salvatorians? They're RC under Rome -- non-Patriarchal, but claim to be "Byzantine"? Same for the Sisters. And I think there's an Armenian community that is also "Rome", but Armenian? And I'm sure that there are other Chaldean, Coptic, Mozarabic, Malabar and Malankar groups that fit the bill? Are they just ecclesio-vaudeville?

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Dear Dr. John,

How right you are!

And as for the Odd Fellows, do I fit that bill or what?!

And although I love "Lance a lot" I was simply repeating (and perhaps I shouldn't do that) what a couple of sources I had on the Knights of Malta had said about the Holy Emperor Paul.

They said his election was "irregular" but that they do indeed regard him as one of their Grand Masters.

Ultimately, it is of no matter.

He certainly thought of himself as a Knight of the White Cross, wore it publically, and by his actions demonstrated more charity than many of those western Crusaders - who should probably and more accurately be called "sword bearers."

Even picture and icon I have seen of him has him with the Cross of Malta.

The Maltese Knights should be proud that such a holy man and Orthodox Christian wanted to be associated with them.

I also asked a Catholic Knight of Malta who works here with me about this, and he told me that he and his colleagues certainly believe Emperor Paul I to be a legitimate Grand Master, something that for them also has ecumenical implications.

But what do I know? I accept it as you say!

Have a nice day!

Alex

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: anastasios ]

Dear Anastasios,

I certainly have no problem with titles derived from monarchic times . . .

In our church, a new Order was brought in, the "Knights of the Holy Sepulchre" and they look very much like the Templar Knights, white capes and red cross pattee.

This Order has the blessing of the Patriarch of Constantinople as well and they often accompanied our old bishop during important liturgical events.

We also have the Knights of Columbus, but some feel they are "Latin" (?)

What is that all about?

Alex