www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Many Are Thinking About Leaving?

incognitus,

Well, it is a liturgikon, not a pew book. Examine it carefully. Having witnessed GC liturgy in Slovakia with changes that are not included in the liturgikon (those involving the Trisagion for example) I am not able to be as enthusiastic as you. According to my contacts there it is an improvement over that which was in place immediately prior.

Tony

Friends,

The GCs in Czech Republic have the same issue with philanthropos

It is almost the same as Slovak, in Czech it is "neboť je dobr� a miluje n�s" or "for He is good and loves us."

The entire document can be found here [acizek.nfo.sk] .

Tony

Tony,

"I would like to see an example of what you originally cite."

I thought I did. The previous post shows the old text using Who as a pronoun for Christ changed to He. Also in the Creed. Who was used as a pronoun for the Holy Spirit. i.e "Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified" in the old text is changed to "He is worshipped and glorified together with the Father and the Son" in the new text.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,

You thought you did but you did not. You quoted from the anaphora and the change was from "who" to "you."

In regard to the above cited, the underlying Slavonic is ""izhe so Otsem i Synom sopklaniaema i ssoslavima." ISTM that "izhe" (which or demonstrative who) is accurate. Of course, the demands of English grammar, syntax, stylistics must be considered.

Tony

Tony,

Sorry for the confusion. Yes that was the first change in the section I cited but Who was also used for Chrsit after that and that was changed to He.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Tony,
CHRIST IS RISEN! Yes, I'm painfully aware of some of the lamentable peculiarities which one can experience at Greek Catholic services in Slovakia. But the text for which you posted the link is indeed what I said it is.
As elsewhere, it's often a question of what you seek and where you seek it. Bishop Milan of Kosice is worth the trip to Slovakia.
If you've not yet seen the previous Slovak "liturgikon", by all means take a look at it. But be sure that you are seated in a comfortable chair.

Incognitus

Dear Everyone,
CHRIST IS RISEN! Just last evening I noticed with some pleasure that this particular thread is certainly popular in that it continues to attract lots of postings - which indicates that people take liturgical matters seriously and that is as it should be.

Now I notice that there are several people posting objections to the very existence of such a thread, deploring any discussion of the matter (the reasons put forward for this negative view are best not repeated).

Well, nobody is compelled to read the postings on this thread. Those who dislike it to the point of wanting it to stop are at complete liberty to read some other thread, to read something else altogether, or to start a thread about whatever might interest them.

If one finds present-day science fiction deplorable, then don't read it. If one finds heavy metal deplorable, then don't listen to it. If one finds "fast food" deplorable, then don't eat at McDonalds. And so forth.

Incognitus

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Two questions and a shameless plug and plea for praxis.

1.) How many Greek Catholics and how many parishes left the Catholic Church with Fr. Alexis Toth in the 1890s?

2.) How many Greek Catholics and how many parishes left the Catholic Church with Fr. Orestes Chornock and formed ACROD?

It seems if we have a mass exodus our Church will simply collapse. There's just not that many of us left.

Instead of leaving our Church, please consider joining our new effort to rejuvenate our Church with vision, mission and strategic planning. We're forming a group to support our bishops, so they know that folks really do want to be Byzantine.

Check out the discussion in the Evangelization threads and join us.

We can do something wonderful for our children and Church as we pursue the imperishable crown as athletes of Christ. Recall the words of St. Paul the Apostle:

"Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

-- 1 Cor 9:24-27

So, please don't leave our Church. With us rests the hopes and prayers of a great saint -- Pope John Paul the Great of blessed memory. Unity is our destiny. But first, we need to answer the call of Christ to push our Church to embrace being fully Byzantine.

In Christ,

John

The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church in America
is shrinking. If you don't believe it, wait till the numbers from the surveys are released. In the Archeparchy itself, the mean age is well over 65 yrs. of age (big surprise there ). Probably about 1/3 of the current parishes will be closed through attrition in the next 10 years. Any mass exodus due to liturgical changes would have catastrohic results. Is it wise for the hierarchs to take that gamble?

Ungcsertezs

The link below is to an article about the rejection of standard English, and the use of socalled "inclusive language."

"Jesus, Son of Humankind," by Paul Mankowski, S.J. [touchstonemag.com]

Ung-Certez,

You bring up a concern that has also been in the back of my mind. What would happen if people left over this?

Although I am too young to remember the implementation of the changes after Vatican II, it is clear that the introduction of the NO was done well in a few places, and not done well in most others. The top-down approach - here it is folks, keep warm and well fed - doesn't work, and leaves people confused thinking everything is up for grabs. While these changes do not appear quite as drastic, I think some rationale and catechesis are necessary to help fully grasp the meaning and importance of the changes.

Since Vatican II, there has been much research in the area of change management as part of organizational theory. In the marketplace, businesses develop change strategies to help prevent the loss of talent and accelerate the integration of change into the life of the organization. It is a means to help reduce the shock, disorientation and sense of displacement that can come from the introduction of anything new.

Change theorists also recommend a "Stop, Reflect, Act" posture at critical phases of the implementation or post-implementation to ensure that the change is/was well received and is/was not harmful.

Do the hierarchs have a strategy for implementation that takes into account some of the reactions that we have seen here? Although I am not opposed to the changes in general (some I really like), I share your concern about the possible exodus of some.

Not to overgeneralize, but if what you say is true about the demographics, it may be tough for those in the 65 year-old age range to readily accept changes to the liturgy without an intense catechesis, as recommended in part by by Dr. Catherine Tkacz. Some might very well leave, which would be tragic for all concerned.

My two cents,

Gordo

Incognitus,

Your note in disingenuous at best. I have not suggested that a discussion of the liturgy is a bad thing. In fact it is a very good thing. What is bad is gossip in which this thread specializes and in the chicken little threats of leaving when nothing has been presented yet.

Is there a kindness somewhere in your post?

Dan L

This implosian is necessary and good. Changing the liturgy will make no difference at all. Why worry about it? If you wish an impact upon the liturgy talk with your bishop.

Dan L

Gordo,

"Not to overgeneralize, but if what you say is true about the demographics, it may be tough for those in the 65 year-old age range to readily accept changes to the liturgy without an intense catechesis, as recommended in part by by Dr. Catherine Tkacz. Some might very well leave, which would be tragic for all concerned."

I know that your heart is with evangelization and I note that your post is irenic. However, I wish you to think through this last paragraph.

Let me illustrate: My uncle died yesterday. He had been sick for several years and rather uninvolved in his Church except for occassional visits by his pastor. He was 69.

Whether the changes are good or bad they are virtually insignificant based upon the evidence presented thus far. If we pull back from what God is asking us to do because of our fear of what those who are over 65 might do we deserve to die. More than likely those over 65 will be happy to see any thoughtful change that will continue what they have given their lives for. It is certainly the case at Annunciation where we have a wonderful group of people ranging in age from a few days to nearly 100. All seem to coexist quite nicely.

This argument is a red herring.

Dan L

What good will all the "politically-correct" inclusive worded liturgies be if the Ruthenian Metropolia is nothing but a small, dying "sui juris" church that will be forced to "merge" with either the Ukrainian or Melkite Byzantine Catholic
Churche (it may very well happen in 5-10 years)?

Ungcsertezs