www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Hades or straight to Heaven?

As I understand the Roman Catholic understanding is that when the righteous die they go stright to heaven. The Byzantine position is that the righteous go to paradise in hades to get a fortaste of their future reward. Which one is right? I don't think both are true. Thanks!

I think that Dr. Michael Azkoul (you can find some of his work by searching for his name on google) makes a half-decent case in favor of the latter position (ie. that the righteous go to a part of hades and get a foretaste of what awaits them). He supports his position from Scripture, Tradition, and--in wonderfully Orthodox fashion--from the Liturgical texts of the Church. The only problem is that he usually makes his points within the context of refuting the errors he perceives in certain other Orthodox authors (Ignatius Brianchaninov, Seraphim Rose, etc.), such as the issue of toll houses. Sometimes his polemics are very harsh, and sometimes he's just plain wrong in his charges. Having said that, if you can look past those particular parts and just focus on the times when he's actually presenting evidence for his position, he makes a strong case.

Well I've studied Byzantine Christianity for some time now, and I must admit I've never heard of this Eastern position. Are you saying that the saved person's soul goes to Hell to get a foretaste of what awaits them in Heaven? Why is that? Why do they need a foretaste, why can't the just go straight there (or through Purgatory/Final Theosis)? Is this Final Theosis? Bow could one get a "taste of Heaven" in a place totally separated from God?

ChristTeen287

ChristTeen287,

Hades and Hell are not the same place. Hades can be likened to the Hebrew Sheol, or "Abode of the Dead". Hell, of course, is the total separation from God with all the sulfur and brimstone and fire and everything else that we use to describe such a horrible state of being.

I've actually just begun to study this aspect of Eastern Christian thought and am reading this thread with much anticipation.

In Christ,
mikey.

After thinking a lot on this topic I've came to a little more understanding. The Roman Catholic and Byzantine ideas about this subject are similar. We both admit that before we get our body in the general resurrection our "reward" in heaven is not complete. So we both believe that we are getting a foretaste of future glory when we die.

As I understand it. Roman Catholic theology says when you die and find life in Heaven, your body is glorified, in other words all those in heaven now need not wait for the ressurection of their body. Their body is already ressurected, and glorified in Heaven. Yes even whence your body lies decomposing in the ground, it is also simultaneously ressurected and glorified in Heaven living in the Deitific Vision. As I undertstand it if we say other wise we are attempting to limit the understanding of the ressurection of our bodies and it's glorification to our own understanding of *time*.

Justin

According to Father Azkoul:

After the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called "Particular Judgment."

When Christ returns, the soul rejoins its risen body to be judged by Him. The "good and faithful servant" will inherit eternal life, the unfaithful with the unbeliever will spend eternity in hell. Their sins and their unbelief will torture them as fire.

As you can see, there's not a big difference between the Latin understanding of the Purgatory, and the Orthodox possition.
The problem of the Purgatory, is that it is very inconsistent, it's not clear if everybody will go there before heaven (like the Hades).
The Latin Church understands Hades and Hell as the same thing(?), there's a confussion.

Dear Remie,

Yes, I've often wondered about why some Orthodox teachers, such as St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv, have even accepted Purgatory as a doctrine of Orthodoxy!

His original Catechism was expunged of any references too purgatory, but Peter insisted on teaching it in his Kyivan Metropolia.

Meyendorff, at one point, says that at the Council of Florence it came as a shock to the Greeks that the Latins had differentiated the afterlife into states prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

The main difference between the Latin West and the Orthodox East here is the fundamentally dynamic character of the eschatology of the East.

Even in heaven, souls continue to advance in the love of God and its joys - which is why we not only pray to the saints, but FOR them in the liturgy.

The Orthodox Church also has 12 special prayer times for the dead not including each Saturday in the Divine Praises or the Horologion.

We believe that our prayer can help make a soul's union with God in the afterlife that much closer.

As Peter Mohyla also wrote in his catechism, if we see someone who has died after committing a terrible evil, it is incumbent upon us as Christians to pray fervently for that soul and ask God not to punish it according to what it deserves, but to forgive it according to His mercy.

Ultimately, God decides our fate, He is the Lord of the gates of death and hell, and that is just fine with me.

Who said that "I'm happy God will judge me and not my mother?"

Alex

So when Our Lord speaks of "Hades" he is not referring to Hell? This is all new to me.

Remie,
As I understand it, and I'm pretty sure this is right, is that those who are saved but need to be further purified (of venial sins and such) are sent to Purgatory, where their sins are "purged." The damned go straight to Hell, and some even go straight to Heaven, if purification is not needed. Since the Bible says, "Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven" (Rev. 21:17 I believe it is) then obviously some purgation is needed. I see this as necessary. No one knows how "long" one's stay in Purgatory may take, but Latin apologists have always made clear that the concept of time in the afterlife (heaven, hell, purgatory, sheol) is not the same as our concept of it.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

Orthodox Catholic,

I'm just guessing here, but perhaps when Latins pray "for" saints, they are praying for saints in Purgatory (for they are saved, but not yet in Heaven). Only two points are known for facts concerning Purgatory; I cannot rememver the first, but the second is that prayer is efficacious for those in Purgatory. What about the Eastern idea of Final Theosis? Isn't this when our last human components are "deified". I have always understood "Abraham's Bosom" to mean that level of existence in which those who lived before Christ and are worthy of Heaven waited. When Christ "descended into Hell" isn't it understood that he ventured into Abraham's Bosom to free all of those who were awaiting Him to go to Heaven? This is what I have always understood.

If anyone has any helpful online articles concerning the Eastern understanding or Final Theosis or sheol/Abraham's bosom, please let me know.

ChristTeen287

Dear ChristTeen,

I never said that Latins "pray for" saints in Purgatory - that would be an impossibility since the saints properly so called have no need of cleansing in purgatory, from the Latin Church's point of view.

There is private devotion to the "Holy Souls" in purgatory in the West, to be sure, but it is completely different from devotion to saints per se.

Both Churches, East and West, agree that a Divine Liturgy offered in honour of a saint can give the saint added "joyfulness" and honour in heaven. Thus, a dynamic is involved here. One doesn't stand still in holiness, even in heaven.

As for your other questions, you'll have to hear from a real theologian .

Alex

Hello:

A few thoughts on this issues.

From Scripture, it is very clear that Hades is not Hell. Hell, as a place of eternal death is also called Gehenna and it is clearly distinct from Hades/Sheol.

St. Paul says that he wants to die and be with Christ. From this it seems to point out that those who are saved, will enjoy the presence of Christ soon (if not immediately) after physical death.

A deeper question would be whether there is "time" in the afterlife. If Eternity and Time are mutually exclusive concepts, then the whole point becomes mute, for as the departed soul enters Eternity, then there is no more past, present, or future, but only an everlasting "now".

This would mean that the resurrection of the dead is something that has yet to come in time, but also an ever-present reality in Eternity, and therefore there is no need for intermediate states.

The visions of St. John in the book of Revelation might support this idea. The Lamb is seen both showing the signs of His sacrifice and standing up, living again. The sacrifice of Christ is an event that happened in a certain moment in Time, but also an everlasting reality in Eternity.

The devotion to the Saints, in my opinion, favors the idea of a single Heaven where you go after death. If there was a previous state between death and the general resurrection, then why would the prayer of the Saints be more powerful than our own? Just because their waiting room is "closer" than ours? Unlikely.

Shalom,
Memo.

Memo,

St. James tells us in his catholic epistle that "the prayer of a righteous man is powerful, indeed." We know that the Church Triumphant (and to a certain extent the Church Suffering), are more righteous for they have completed their "race" to God while we are still running it. I, for one, am not going to call myself a "righteous man" for I know that I am chief among sinners, a title that all of us seem to enjoy "fighting over" .

In Christ,
mikey.

Maximus, Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that we shall receive our body in the general resurrection. This is seen as an increase in our glory. So the ideas are similar.

Adam

I think it is very interesting about the Eastern practice of "praying for" the saints. Does this help them expand in their degree of glory merited in this life or does it raise them to new levels of glory?

Adam

Dear Adam,

In a word, yes.

And Latin Catholics can and do offer Masses in honour of this or that Saint - same thing.

The forecourt of heaven that Amado is having such difficulty with is like being in heaven.

But the East believes that we are not fully saved unless we are saved in the totality of our existence, mind, body and soul. And that will only happen at the Final Judgement.

Alex