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Even when I was a practising Anglican many recognised the position of the Pope, but what we now must ask is when do you stop turning a cheek to un-catholic ideals that have popped up in the last 50 years? When is the successor to St. Peter held accountable for his office? The following is a very critical article written by a priest (I believe he is not in communion with Rome) and holds very valid points on just how far out of step �our� Pope is. Pope John Paul II is inviting all the major religions of the world, the Muslims in particular, to a great prayer meeting in Assisi, in the same spirit of the first meeting for peace that took place there in 1986. We are deeply distressed by this event and condemn it totally.
Because it offends God in His first commandment.
Because it denies the unity of the Church and Her mission of saving souls.
Because it can only lead the faithful into confusion and indifferentism.
Because it deceives the unfortunate unfaithful and members of other religions. The problem does not lie in the object of the prayers -peace. To pray for peace and to seek to establish and strengthen peace between peoples and nations is a good thing in itself. The Catholic liturgy is full of beautiful prayers for peace. We pray these prayers with all our hearts. Moreover, given the fact that the angels announced, on the birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ, peace on earth to men of good will, it is totally fitting to ask the faithful to implore the One True God to grant us a gift of such great value at this stage in the year.
The reason for our indignation lies in the confusion, scandal and blasphemy that result from an invitation from the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ, sole mediator between God and man, to other religions to come to Assisi to pray for peace.
It has been stated that to avoid any syncretism, those attending will not be praying "together", but that each religion will pray in separate rooms in the Franciscan convent at Assisi.. Cardinal Kasper went so far �and rightly so �to affirm that "Christians cannot pray with members of other religions." (Osservatore Romano, January 5, 2002). However, this affirmation is not enough to dissipate the dreadful uneasiness and confusion caused by the event; it cannot be denied that all kinds of religions will be praying "each in their own camp" to obtain from these prayers said at the same time, but in different locations, the same result: peace. The fact that all have been invited to pray, at the same time and in the same town, for the same intention is clear proof of the for unity. On the other hand, the fact that the prayers will be offered in separate locations betrays the contradictory and impossible nature of the project. In reality, the distinction is false, even though, thanks be to God, it avoids a direct communicatio in sacris. However, the syncretic nature of the operation is obvious to all. Recourse to deceitful words has made it possible to deny the painfully obvious reality. But words do not mean anything any more: we will be going to Assisi, not to pray together, we are going there together to pray � no syncretism, etc.
The establishment of civil (political) peace between nations by congresses, discussions, diplomacy, with the intervention of influential persons of different nations and religions, is one thing. It is another to claim to obtain the gift of peace from God by the prayer of all (false) religions. Such an initiative is completely inconsistent with the Catholic faith and goes against the first commandment.
This is not a question of individual prayer, that of one man, in his own particular relationship with God, whether as creator or sanctifier, but the prayer of different religions, as such, with their own particular rite addressed to their own particular divinity. Holy Scripture, (both the Old and the New Testaments) teach us that the only prayer pleasing to God is that of He, Whom He established as sole mediator between Himself and men, and that this prayer can only be found in the one true religion. God considers an abomination all other religions, especially idolatry, the summum of all superstitions.
Moreover, how can one hope to claim that religions that fail to recognize the one true God can possibly obtain anything from Him? Saint Paul assures us that these false gods are fallen angels and s. "But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to s and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with s. You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of s: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord, and of the table of s." (I Cor. 10: 20-21)
Inviting these religions to pray is inviting them to make an act that God reproves, that he condemns in the first commandment, one God alone shall you adore. It is leading the members of such religions into error and condoning their ignorance and misfortune.
Worse still: this invitation implies that their prayers might be useful, or even necessary, in order to obtain peace. Almighty God made it perfectly clear what He thinks of this, via the words of his apostle Saint Paul: "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God saith: �I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."(II Cor. 6: 14-16)
"We will never fully understand the struggle between the good and the wicked throughout history, as long as we do not see it as the personal and unyielding battle for all time between and Jesus Christ." wrote Archbishop Lefebvre in all his wisdom. (Spiritual Journey, p. 37; available from Angelus Press for $7.95) This fundamental truth, as far as war and peace are concerned, would appear to have been totally forgotten in the thinking behind the initiative in Assisi.
At one point during the day, everyone will be gathered together. When, then, will the participants hear the cry of the first Pope, Saint Peter "Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) The same Jesus Christ, sole Savior, is also the sole author of peace. But will anyone dare point out these elementary truths to guests who are strangers to Christianity? Fear of hurting their feelings will mean that this absolutely essential condition for true peace will be overlooked or reduced to a purely subjective belief ("for us Christians, Jesus Christ is God" etc.)
As we have just pointed out: Not only is there only one true God and "So that they are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20) but there is also only one mediator (I Tim 2, 5), one sole ambassador authorised by God, who intercedes ceaselessly on our behalf (Heb 7, 25). Religions which refuse to recognise His divinity explicitly, such as Judaism and Islam, have no chance of having their prayers answered, because of so fundamental an error. "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also." (I John 2:22-23)
Despite monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God, we do not have the same mediator. Only the mystical bride of Christ (Eph 5, 32) has the prerogative of obtaining from God, in the name of, and through, Our Lord Jesus Christ, any favours, in particular that of peace. Such is the faith that the Church has taught and believed constantly, throughout the ages and from time immemorial. This is, by no means, a question of intolerance or of disdain for one�s neighbor, it is a question of an unchangeable truth. "No one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14,6)
To make gestures, or to get others to make them, that no longer express this, is to deceive oneself. It offends God, Our Lord Jesus Christ in whom He is well pleased and His Holy Church (Mt 16, 18). How can those who refuse this mediation -as do the Jews and Muslims explicitly, in refusing to recognize His divinity �possibly hope to have their prayers answered? The same goes for those who refuse to accept the Church�s role as mediator.
John Paul II has attempted to justify the prayer meetings in Assisi on several occasions. In fact, one of his arguments is founded on the definition of prayer. "All authentic prayer comes from the Holy Ghost who dwells mysteriously in every soul". Inasmuch as one attributes the correct meaning to the word "authentic", one could accept the first part of the sentence. But it is obvious that one cannot say that the prayer of a Buddhist, before an idol of Buddha, of that of a doctor smoking the peace pipe, or that of an animist, is authentic.
The only authentic prayer is true prayer addressed to the true God. It is totally wrong to qualify a prayer addressed to the as authentic. Can the prayer of a fanatical ist, before crashing into the Manhattan tower: "Allah is great" be called authentic?
Wasn�t he convinced that he was doing the right thing, doesn�t that make him sincere? It is clear that a purely subjective way of looking at things is not sufficient to make a prayer authentic.
The second part of the sentence: "the Holy Ghost dwells mysteriously in every soul", or in every man, is certainly false. The word "mysteriously" can be misleading: in Catholic theology, as in Holy Scripture, the dwelling of the Holy Ghost is directly linked to the presence of sanctifying grace. One of the first formulae used in baptism consists of commanding the to leave the soul in order to let the Holy Ghost enter it. This strates quite clearly that the Holy Ghost did not dwell in the soul before baptism. And so, the justification for the interdenominational day of prayer at Assisi is based on a false premise.
Those wishing to promote dialogue, which requires considering the other party in a highly positive light, argue that there is much good in other religions, and, given that God is the sole source of good, God is at work in other religions. This is pure sophistry, based on the lack of distinction between natural order and supernatural order. It goes without saying that, when one speaks of the action of God in a religion, one implies a work of salvation. This means God who saves by His grace. His supernatural grace. On the other hand, the good referred to in other religions, (non-Christian ones at any rate) is merely natural; in such cases, God is acting as creator, Who gives being to all things, and not as savior. The determination of the Vatican II Council to dispense with the distinction between the order of grace and natural order bears, in this respect, its most poisonous fruits. The result is the worst sort of confusion, that which leads people to think that any religion can finally obtain the greatest favors from God. This is a huge fraud, a ridiculous error.
It is in keeping with the masonic p establish a grand temple of universal brotherhood above all religions and beliefs, "Unity in diversity" a concept so dear to the New Age and to globalization. "We were excommunicated by Clement XI in 1738 because of our interdenominational principles. But the Church was definitely in error, if it is true that, on 27th October 1986, the present Pope gathered together men of all religious confessions in Assisi to pray for peace. What else are our brothers looking for when they gather together in temples, than love between men, tolerance, solidarity, defense of the dignity of the human-being, considering themselves equal, above political and religious beliefs and the color of their skin?" (Grand Master Armando Corona, of the Grand Lodge of the Spring Equinox, Hiram �voice of the Grand Orient of Italy �April 1987)
One thing is certain: there is no better way to provoke the anger of God.
This is why, despite our strong for the peace of God, we will have absolutely nothing to do with this day of prayer on 24th January, in Assisi. Nullam partem.
+Bernard Fellay January 21, 2002
Abba Isidore the Priest: When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day. (p. 97, Isidore 4)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lauffer: [QB]
Hence, VCI is not correct and the Pope is not infallible? I guess the lot of humanity is to be illogical. Do you think that there will ever be a meeting of the minds on this issue?
Dan Lauffer
Vatican I has a lot of problems, Pastor Aeternus and the issue of infallibility being just one. Can a council be ecumenical if half the Church is missing? Can a council be ecumenical if the bishops are acting under compulsion (cf. the Robber's Synod of Ephesus)? Can a council be ecumenical if it is not accepted by a majority of its delegates, or by the entire Body of Christ? Can a council be ecumenical if one of the fundamental premises of its central declaration is demonstrably false? All things that need to be examined.
As to a meeting of minds on the issue of infallibility, it's pretty much already there among the more ecuemnically minded on both sides of the aisle. But don't expect the Catholic Church to repudiate it: "We may not always be right, but we are never wrong". Instead, expect further "clarifications" that render the whole matter moot without actually repealing Pastor Aeternus. Universal jurisdiction was always more of a real sticking point than infallibility. And here the Catholic Church has said the matter is open to reinterpretation. This is where the Eastern Catholic Churches can find their true vocation, by establishing in their own relations with the Church of Rome the new ground rules that would apply between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches, should communion be restored.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DTBrown: [QB]Stuart wrote:
The issue is: did Pope Honorius teach error ex cathedra?
No, that's not the issue, that's an evasion. The very notion of "speaking ex cathedra" is anachronistic in the context of the sixth century. So, it would have been impossible for Honorius to speak in that manner in any case. The fact is, he proposed "one will", he wrote about it, not in private but official correspondance intended for public reading, he endorsed the teaching. I don't know what more is needed to establish that a Bishop of Rome taught something which was not merely erroneous but heretical with regard to not some tangential matter of faith, but one of the central dogmas.
This is what I call "squirming".
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Stuart wrote: This is what I call "squirming". Not at all. The Catholic faith on infallibility does not hold what you are representing it to be. This is precisely why Vatican I is worded so carefully: because of situations like Honorius. It doesn't help to misrepresent what Vatican I teaches. Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com [ 06-28-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]
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Stuart,
"Universal jurisdiction was always more of a real sticking point than infallibility. And here the Catholic Church has said the matter is open to reinterpretation. This is where the Eastern Catholic Churches can find their true vocation, by establishing in their own relations with the Church of Rome the new ground rules that would apply between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches, should communion be restored."
I agree. It will take alot of squirming to get around the logical inconsistencies of "infallibility" but it can be done. Universal Jurisdiction must be changed. I know it's been discussed here before and I hope that we can make a valuable contribution if communion ever be restored. Maybe a new thread on this subject would be good.
Dan Lauffer
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Dear Stuart and Dan,
Perhaps it is just the Eastern Churches with their understanding of collegiality and service to the Church that can provide the kind of insights on a renewed Papacy that will be acceptable to one and all.
A priest I know studying this issue once briefly told me that "Papal Infallibility" should be "recast" in terms of what happens when the Pope's signature is the last to sign the decisions of an Ecumenical Council.
And "Papal Jurisdiction" should be recast in terms of Papal involvement in the affairs of a Particular Church - when that Church asks for such involvement and not before.
Alex
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Alex,
Very well put. Simple, practical and pastoral.
Dan Lauffer
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Originally posted by StuartK: >>>We have had bad popes, but NONE have EVER declared anything contrary to dogma, EVER!>>>
Um, well, there is the little inconveniene of Pope Honorius I, condemned by the Third Council of Constantinople for teaching that there is only one will in Christ (monothelitism). Latin apologists have tried to squirm their way around this one for centuries, and it was a major objection to infallibility at the First Vatican Council, but none of the arguments used (all of which amount to variations on "He didn't know what he was saying" to "He didn't really mean it") stand up to any rigorous scrutiny. The facts are plain: Honorius taught a proposition that was rejected by the Church while he was sitting as a canonical pope, was anathematized for it, and the Church of Rome accepted the condemnation. In fact, until well into the Second Millennium, the anathema was actually read out in church every year. It's still read out every year in Orthodox Churches on the Feast of Orthodoxy (First Sunday in Lent), including those Byzantine Catholic parishes which actually read the Anathemas on the Vigil of the Feast. You are incorrect in stating that the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff as taught by Vatican I is contradicted by this incedent. Vatican I taught that in order to invoke the charism if infallibility the Roman Pontiff must be acting as a teacher to all Christians. Honorius ratified document that only applied to a portion of Christians in the East, not the Universal Church.
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Regarding Pope Honorious and Monothelitism, I recommend the article at the following link:http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3301
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Mac, Are you aware that you dredged up a thread from 2 years ago and are replying to a poster who last posted here in Oct 2002? If you really want to argue with Stuart (which can induce migraines and heartburn), he was actively posting at CINEAST [ cin.org] , last time I looked. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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As far as Papal Supremacy is concerned from a BC as opposed to an RC perspective, that is an internal affair of the Catholic Church (and I therefore will not comment). However, some rather simplistic stances of the Orthodox Church have been presented and therefore seek an Orthodox response.
Regarding Papal Supremacy (or non-Supremacy), it has not been a reality in the Orthodox Church for centuries. Speaking Apophatically (or Theologically Negatively), it is not part of "all earthly care" that we liturgically lay aside prior to the Great Entrance. Again in dealing with Applied Theology, during the First Millenium of Communion (not Universal Jurisdiction as defined in Vaticans I and II), many bishops, many more clergy and perhaps even the masses of believers in the East did not know who the Pope of Rome was. The number of bishops commenting on these issues is small compare to the number of bishops that have no official written position on the issue. Are these bishops with their clergy and flock any less Orthodox or Catholic that those who did comment? These issues simply were not a part of the heavy concern of "working out your salvation with fear and trembling".
Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!
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Even when I was a practising Anglican many recognised the position of the Pope, but what we now must ask is when do you stop turning a cheek to un-catholic ideals that have popped up in the last 50 years? When is the successor to St. Peter held accountable for his office? The following is a very critical article written by a priest (I believe he is not in communion with Rome) and holds very valid points on just how far out of step �our� Pope is. Gideon: Did you ever wonder if the earthquake was a divine commentary on the Assisi gatherings? Of course, Roman officials quickly explained afterwards that there was no connection, but I wonder.
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