www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Saturday evening Divine Liturgy

If the information on the first post on this thread is really from Met. Basil, then I say, "God bless you, Met. Basil."

I was wondering where our new Metropolitan stood in regard to restoring our traditions. :p

I find the subject of Vesperal Divine Liturgies interesting. Would someone please go into the development of this tradition, its purpose, the reasons behind it, etc.?

On one hand: Bravo for Metropolit Basil!!! [or rather: Mnohaya Lyita {ahem... }]

It's a sad situation when we have suppressed almost our entire liturgical Tradition and only know "mass" (speaking re my own Church).

It is important [not just correct, but wonderful, Pastorally wonderful and sensitive, to heal the souls and feeds the spiritual lives of people with the others canonically prescribed Divine Services, esp. Vespers and Matins. They really are great services and we faithful are robbed if we have no opportunity to know and pray them - and our hierarchs imo are doing us no favour when they suppress them.

On the other hand: people are upset and do not welcome this improvement in the life of the Church. This is real and really important to be sensitive to.

Here we may be tempted to ask Why? And how did we get into this state of affairs?

But the more important Pastoral Question is How to get the faithful to know and appreciate these other Sunday Services.

Vespers is making a very slow but significant come back [without any help from our Metr.] in our eparchy. It's slowly getting around that if one cannot make Divine Liturgy, e.g. on a Feast Day, the Vespers or Matins will do.

Now the next step is to get people to do "both and" as opposed to "either or".

herb.

ps: I am not sure why Vespers or Vigil could not be served on Sat. evening and have more than one Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

ps: I guess it hard not to confuse what is central with the entirety. That is to say, the Eucharist is central, but it is not all of it.

And that which is not central, may well still be essential!!!

Some may ask, "What is more important than the Eucharist". To which the reply may be, "Well, what is more important than the Paschal Proclamation at Sunday Matins [i.e. "Christ is Risen!"]

This identifying the central for the entirety thing is not very helpful. Besides which it is not our Byzantine way of thinking to juxtapose which is more important, receiving Holy Communion or responding to the Paschal Greeting "Christ is Risen!" at Matins on Sunday morning/evening. The very dichotomous nature of the question is the problem, I think.

I must say that I for one am overjoyed at such an obvious and deliberate attempt to reclaim Saturday evening for its proper activity, viz., Great Vespers. Once people see this service and know it celebrated well, they will love it. But of course that requires considerable pastoral education in advance. One thing to remind people would be that, according to the Code of Canons of Eastern Churches, attendance at Great Vespers on Saturday fulfills what is called the "Sunday obligation." I don`t like that terminology, still less the practice and its mentality of Christian minimalism and legalism, but perhaps it`s a good carrot (or a stick?) to lure people into the service!

As an addendum, and to avoid the language of "fulfilling one`s obligation," I think it far more felicitous to teach people (to borrow an analogy that I learned from the mitred archpriest, Roman Galadza) that Eucharist without Matins and Vespers is like only eating the dessert course. Sure it`s good, but eventually your teeth will rot out of your head and you will go into a diabetic coma!

I agree with you 1000% Adam. Father Roman's famous culinary similitude has gotten a lot of mileage.

But any "radical" return to authentic Byzantine liturgical practice is going to require lots and lots of catechetical preparation before, during, and after any major change such as scrapping Saturday evening Liturgies and moving towards celebrating Vespers and hopefully also Matins.

The people have to be prepared, spiritually, liturgically and theologically for such a change. But it is definitely a worthwhile endeavor, and returning to a more authentic liturgical practice is not only mandated by several Church documents but is absolutely necessary if we are to really be "orthodox in communion with Rome".

Mark,

Just to clairify my stand on this let me say the following.

Ideally, what happened in the past within our church, is that when the parish grew to such a size that it requried multiple Divine Liturgies on a Sunday, it would split into two parishes.

A cathedral or other such church that had multiple Sunday Divine Liturgies would have one altar for each along. I believe that someone once posted a picture of an Icon screen that had three sets of Royal Doors, each with an altar... That means this church would hold three Divine Liturgies.

Now I know that this is not possible today, to start a new parish, but is the size of the current parish really that big that they must have 2 Divine Liturgies on Sunday? If it really is, then I am not that upset with it. If it isn't then by all means do away with one of them.

As for Saturday Night Divine Liturgies, this should never have been started as has been said here. Our traditon is to hold Great Vespers on Saturday Evenings.

Your brother in Christ,
David

If that Parish was unable to have Divine Liturgy on Sunday due to lack of a Priest, Met. Basil would allow Sat. Vespers then Divine Liturgy as he did my Community when he was Bishop of Parma.I wish we could have Sunday Liturgy. We would have more attendees especially long distance ones.I don't understand those people. I wish they could experience no Byzantine Church in their area. They would treat their Church and Pastor as treasures. Since other Parishes are close by and if they make good on their threat to leave, perhaps that Church will be shut and that Priest could be sent to a Mission Church.BTW when we had to leave our former worship space a converted school room in a RC parish he then Bishop Basil did not want us back using a RC Parish for worship space. He wanted us on our own.To grow our own identity. Note to you folks back east: As the Priest crunch grows more severe status quo is not gonna be good enough. If you aren't willing to help your pastor create a vibrant dazzling knock your socks off parish and you don't pick right changes to complain about I predict you will be a target of a closing or merger.

Nicky's Baba

Nicky's Baba,

Unfortunately, most people cannot see or appreciate the treasure they have until they loose it.

I was in Pittsburgh recently, and i marvelled at all the churches there. There were Temples with multiple domes, and could seat a couple hundred people, and huge ikonstasi. The domes shone like beacons all over the city scape. I also saw a number of temples turned into protestant churches (it is wierd to see a black presbyterian church with Greek crosses all over it) and even machine shops and foundries. Twas a sad sight indeed. But in those churches that are still ours i saw what, but quarter filled for a Sunday Liturgy. I even saw an instance where there were more professed parishoners at the shindig downstairs than at the sole Sunday Divine Liturgy. And the missions that are in store fronts or are borrowing worship spaces as well as Priests cannot grow because they have no resources, identity of their own (i am sorry, but all i can think of is the parable of the one who throws the pearls before the swine).

There is a great story of St JOhn Maximovich where on a Great Feastday, the Cathedral was nearly empty of worshippers for Vigil. Vladika was told that there was a great banquet at a fancy hotel going on where a lot of parishioners had gone to.
Upon hearing this, St John vested and was driven to this hotel. He did not say a word but entered the ballroom in full regalia with his great staff and justed looked at the people gathered. The people, of course, were quite ashamed and began to leave. Vladika left and headed back to the Cathedral which was now full and began the Vigil Service!

Now this may be apocryphal, but what a lesson on priorities!!!!!!!!!!

While posting the rule of worship, I also want to say that our tradition is not one of robotic legalism. Were the situation such that there were only one priest and two communities far apart, a bishop might allow, for the duration of the emergency, that a sole priest serve the eucharist at one on Saturday evening and another eucharist on Sunday morning. However, I would expect him to solve the emergency immediately by finding a replacement or ordaining a solid (canonically sound) man even if he were without a formal theological education. Then all would return to the proper rule of worship and the newly ordained man's educxation could be started.

Regarding Vesperal Divine Liturgies prescribed by the rubrics, they are all preparatory. They are for the hardy. They are for the Marine Corps of the Orthodox Catholic Tradition!

As prescribed, if one were to eat a lenten meal on the evening of Holy Thursday after having kept a eucharistic fast (no food or drink since midnight) prior to receiving the eucharist at the Holy Thursday liturgy at 4:00 or 4:30 PM, one would then begin a strict lenten/ascetical fast for Holy Friday (just water, tea, or coffee but no food all day. They even say, for someone who is weak, give them some bread and water! I'm not saying to be so strict! The rule shows us the seriousness of the preparation and our own inadequacy before God. "All fall short of the Glory of God").

Then one has a eucharistic fast (no food or drink) from midnight of Friday-Saturday through to the eucharist of Holy Saturday's Vesperal Divine Liturgy at 4:00 or 4:30 PM. That is 40 hours of fasting! Many parishes bend the times of the services a bit, but the strictness of the rule shows us the relative importance of this preparation.

So the Vesperal Divine Litugies of the Eves of Nativity and Theofany are preparatory for those same very great feasts, and the Vesp. Div. Lits. of Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday are preparatory for the Pascal Divine Liturgy, the feast of feasts, at midnight Saturday-Sunday.

Keep in mind that the Holy Saturday Vesperal Divine Liturgy was the Pascal Liturgy in the early Church. It was a baptismal liturgy as well wherein the catechumens were baptized, chrismated, and communed. (If you doubt, please look at the OT and NT readings, replacement of the "Holy God" with "As many as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Jesus Christ our Lord," the brilliant white vestments and table coverings, and Fr. Calivas' book on the Pascal Cycle [Holy Cross Seminary, Brrokline, Mass], etc.

Vespers and Matins are simply evening and morning prayer. They are elaborate models of what we should do at home. I would never consider attendance at them obligatory as it is for the eucharistic celebrations (although we stay away from that type of legalism anyway. If someone doesn't want to worship, then why should they come? The real question is, if you don't want to thank God each week (eucharistic offering), should you be numbered as a member of the Church?) I agree, people who have regular Sunday employment should try to make some feast days and vespers. He knows the intentions and hearts of his flock. I hope that this is helpful.

In Christ,
Andrew J. Rubis

The celebration of two Liturgies on Sunday and the celebration of the Divine Liturgy during the evening (after Vespers) of the feast day is not only a phaenomenon of latinization. In the city I live in Greece some Orthodox parishes celebrate a second Divine Liturgy on Sundays (10-11 a. m.) after the celebration of Matins and the first Divine Holy Liturgy (7:30-10 a. m.). Other Churches celebrate the Saturday and mayor Feasts Divine Liturgy on Friday's evening after the offices of Vespers and Matins (Panihida or Agrypnia) (21 p. m. -01 a. m). In other churches they celebrate Saturday Holy Liturgy on Friday evening without singing the offices of Vespers and Matins (21-23 p.m.). The celebration of these Vigils (Vespers, Matins, Divine Liturgy) in the parish churches have been promoted specially by the monks of the Holy Mountain (Saint Nicholas Planas, a Greek saint of the 20th century also promoted them) and are much appreciated by the faithful. In some churches they celebrate the Divine Liturgy twice a day (first Divine Liturgy during the Vigil and second Divine Liturgy in the morning) in the same altar. In Lent some parishes celebrate Thursday Presantified Holy Liturgy in the evening and not in the morning as they used to do some years ago (Friday Presantified Divine liturgy is still celebrated in the morning due to the celebration of the Akathist). Saint Nicholas Planas used to celebrate the Holy Liturgy everyday (during Lent he celebrated Presantified Holy Liturgy everyday). Can all this phenomenon be explained as the result of the latinization of the Orthodox Church of Greece? I do not think so.

Dear Francisco,

Thank you. What you say is very interesting, but also not the norm. Is it considered controversial in that city where it is practiced? Is it done because there are too many people to fit into one liturgical celebration?

Technically, I could see two divine liturgies at the same altar by two different priests in the same parish in one day if there are two antimensions. The antimension is the altar, in liturgical theology.

However, what we should really talking about is not the issue of two liturgies in one day, because that is sometimes prescribed, technically, if we look at the eves of Pasca, Theofany, and Nativity (remember that the eve begins the new day, so on these days two litugies are prescribed). What we should be talking about is celebrating the same Divine Liturgy twice; i.e. having two liturgies in the same community for the Annunciation, weekly Resurrectional Liturgy on Sundays, or any other feast. This practice brings us to the idea that there are really two communitites.

I can accept the "two of the same liturgies in one community" as part of economia (household management) when all other options have been exhausted, but only as a temporary measure until a second community can establish their own physical space. Overlapping communities present so many problems.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with their make up, but Presanctified Liturgies are not Divine Liturgies. No offering is made during the Presanctified. It is a Vespers attached to a communion of the faithful (with a reserved sacrament from the previous Sunday). The rubrics do prescribe it for after the 9th hour (3:00 PM) or the 6th hour (12:00 noon).

In Christ,

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

No, there is no controversy about it in the city I live. Why do they that? All-nights vigils are celebrated by monastic churches by parish-churches. The reason for celebration of a second Divine Holy Liturgy on Sunday is that the Sunday Divine Holy Liturgy stars too early (8:30-9:00, Matins begin at 7:00-7:30) for most faithful. In such kinds of second Divine Liturgies in some parishes a Byzantine choir takes the place of the cantors (“ieropsaltes”). But the congregation is basically the same, there are not two different congregations. Last Saturday I attended by first time a Saturday evening Holy Liturgy in an Orthodox Church. Near to my house there are two churches of Saint George so that in one of these churches (a “metochion” of one of the Monasteries of the Holy Mountain which follows the New Calendar) they decided to celebrate the feast of their patron saint with a all-night vigil (Vespers-Matins-Divine Liturgy) on Saturday evening. Yes I knew that Presantified Holy liturgies are not proper liturgies but a Vespers service followed by holy Communion. That was just an example that things are changing in Greece. Probably you will know that Greek Orthodox did not use to celebrate “Vesperal Holy Liturgies” in the evening but in the morning (for example “Easter Vigil” or if you prefer “Holy Saturday Vespers with the Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil” is celebrated in Greece on Saturday morning, yes I know that is quite ridiculous to sing the “Fos Hilaron” hymn at 8:00 a m).
Yours in Christ,
Frank
P.S. Dear Andrew, could you tell me how to find information about the Albanian Orthodox Church in the net. Do you know the web-site of any Albanian Orthodox parish in America? Thank you very much.

Dear Francisco,

Thank you for the clarification. When the parish, St. George, has the all-night vigil; at what hours do the vespers start and matins start? The arrangement that you have described seems really unique. Is it widespread in the city where you live? Do they do the same in other cities? Is the parish under the ABp of Athens or the Pat. of Constantinople? I lived for one week in Athens, two weeks in Thessaloniki and Kalkidhiki and I never heard of such.

If you go to www.oca.org [oca.org] you can see the websites for all of the 13 parishes in the Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America (Metropolitan Herman and Bishop Nikon) [alboschurch@aol.com] (part of the OCA). If you search for the "Patriarchate of Constantinople" or the "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America" you will find information for the 2 parishes in the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America (His Grace Ilia). I'll check these sites again later.

Warm regards,

Andrew