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Steve wrote: --Complaints of this 'new' music is too hard to sing when it is really the same notes our ancestors used only fuel such resistance.--

The �new� music is impossible to sing. Everyone I show it to just grimaces. The people at the seminary keep telling us to wait until it�s promulgated before making a judgment. Once it�s promulgated it will be too late. Ung-Certez is right. This new junk is going to drive people away from our churches because they can�t sing it.

There hasn't been mass distribution of the new music yet. I wish anyone with the music in there hands would go ahead and put in on one of the web sites. My concern is that it will contain only 10% of what used to be sung. It will be nothing but a small, overly-simplified new version of that 1960's English pew book that will have one melody for the Trisagion, one melody for the Cherubic Hymn, etc. It would be a shame to over look the enormous amount of Painchant music that is available from numerous cantor's private collections. An authentic liturgical tradition will not survive when it's reduced to a small portion. I find in very ironic that there have been scholars at several well-known universities that have spent decades writing about the uniqueness of the Subcarpathian Plainchant tradition while we in the Ruthenian Metropolia believe it is something that should be diminished.

As far as individuals financially supporting cantorial training, I will be the first to send a check to the seminary if a real attempt would be made at training cantors.

Ung-Certez

The grey 1965 pew book, which I have in my hands a I type, has but 2 Trisagion melodies, 1 Alleluia melody, ONE Cherubic hym melody ...etc, etc, etc. This is what many parishes used for quite a time. I don't see how one could make a new pew book more simplified than that! The Cantor knew the other melodies and taught them to the parishioners!!!


The green pew book (Passaic, with music) had a few more choices, though the arrangements still left something to be desired.

Save your check. You will likely never be satisfied with any plainchant music someone other than you decides upon.

As to "we in the Ruthenian Metropolia" who "believe it is something that should be diminished.", I certainly do not share that opinion and am a member of the Metropolia.

"What you mean 'We', Kimosabe?" asks Tonto.

Steve Petach
Cantor

Do you not think having a variety of melodies would be better than one or two? When other variant melodies are no longer sung, they will be forgotten. I would like to ask a question to all of our parishes, how many traditional, para-liturgical "koljady" (in English) are still sung? I would guess very few, and probably more Latin/Western Carols are sung instead. Another example that even when sung in English, our carols are too ethnic for the powers that be.

Ung-Certez

Ung Certez,

I will answer as far as my own personal experience....

I guess all those koljady that I sang last year (in English)wasn't enough to please some in the crowd. I even sang some in Slavonic!

I would like to visit your parish and hear what you complain about, though I can't make it for Christmas. I will be in Pittsburgh in February, March, September, October and November of 2004. I usually attend Holy Ghost in McKees Rocks, though I try to visit other parishes while I am in town.

Steve Petach
Van Nuys, CA

Frank C.

Wow, I can do the impossible!!! and so can about 100 others whom I know. It is a matter of looking at the music and comparing it to the original music in the 1906 Bokshai to see that there is nothing 97 years new about it. Maybe it's the translation that upsets you more than the music, Hmmm?

It took thirty years for the english translations we know so well now to become just that, well known.

Steve

In my short time as a BCC cantor I have come to understand that an elaborate setting of anything will likely end up as a solo, or be sung by very few people until they become familiar with it. This is especially true when a given setting is for a single day, and is not reused for another year. People who don't read music often opt out, and those who do, often prefer to be at ease with the setting before singing. It is also rare for even the cantors to rehearse together. Is all this true in most other parishes? These facts influence what the parish WILL sing, regardless of endorsements. Under these circumstances being pragmatic is reasonable, because after all, the congregation gathers for worship, not to support a particular musical style or setting. In general, returning to historic musical and liturgical roots needs to be accomplished with minimal disruption for worshippers. No easy task for any of us.

Frank C.,

The first rule of the Forum is charity. Please find a way to express your opinions in a way that is charitable. People put a lot of work into arranging music. All of this work assists in the building up of the Church.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Thank you for ensuring we are all singing from the same hymn-book!

Alex

Jim, there is nothing wrong with having to solo on certain parts, such as a Dohmat at Vespers or an intricate irmos, which are still in Znamenny to a large extent and can get quite intricate. But the Liturgy, Resurrectional Tones, etc. should be singeable for everyone.

Neumes often work well for people who don't read music, and I actually prefer neumes to written music myself although I can follow written music.

Ya know,

One of the focii of the Cantor school is to train cantors in the "new" music. It's impossible to train people who don't come.

I've been going for five years - and during that time the "new" new music has been introduced, sung, revised, reviewed, sung some more, etc. Comments and sugestions have been sought and adopted. One example of things that have been done to make the music more "user friendly"- a "feathered" note is the doodad that indicates "keep on this note until you finish this particular section." It looks more or less like this: |O| . We use a lot of 'em, because in our chant, there's often a bunch of text on a note. Our "old" books always put the feathered note between a beginning and an ending note on the same pitch. This is not necessarily common in standard music, but it makes it easier for the untrained eye to follow. The music wasn't originally set up this way, but it was all "retrofitted" to accommodate the preference.

How many times does it need to be said? There is TREMENDOUS interest by our hierarchs in preserving our liturgical musical heritage!

I don't think the process is perfect, (and yes, some very faithful people have been treated shabbily, and it troubles me, & I don't know what to do about it, since most of these folks are friends or at least friendly acquaintances and I'm not a bishop) and sure, some of it isn't the way (omnipotent, omniscient) *I* would have set it, but on the whole, it MAKES SENSE - and some of our stuff - at least the English versions, have NEVER made musical sense.

As for the hymns, I need to approach our new pastor about 'em. We don't do Vespers or Matins except on rare occasion, and it would be nice to introduce sme seasonally appropriate hymnody that folks could sing.

Heretically yours,

Sharon

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

DIAK wrote:"...there is nothing wrong with having to solo on certain parts...

Diak, one of the most increidble solo's I've ever heard was on the Dormition Feast when one of my friend's (now a priest) from Uzhorod was singing the Oce Nas. He sang the first few verses and the congregation responded Oce Nas...

I got chills when he first started and soon had tears running down my eyes...

I'll have to look for the cassette he made for me of the different melodies that he sang...

the least servant

mark

Christ is in our midst!

I use this greeting for this post because the lack of charity on this topic has been distressing to me. Perhaps this greeting will remind all of us that when we are rude or act with a lack of trust to another, we actually do it to our Lord and Savior.

So much of what has been discussed on this thread comes off as "either/or" thinking. In the best liturgical and pastoral work, "both/and" reactions tend to produce the most fruit---and the Gospels assure us that "by their fruits shall you know them."

At the Cathedral in Munhall, we sing the carols as they are given in the books printed by Msgr. Levkulic (may his memory be eternal). In general, though, I try to sing two Rusyn-origin carols for every "western" carol. My feeling about this is:
the other carols can be sung somewhere else, but the Rusyn carols will only be sung by us in church (or, in very lucky places, by carolers going from house to house).

Anyone familiar with the hymns I have written to go with the Byzantine Sunday Lectionary is aware that all of the melodies utilized in that collection are Rusyn melodies, mostly from the collection of Marian hymns, with a few well-known tunes from other places (like Kol Slaven Nas, or the Krestu Tvojemu hymn-tune from the Lenten Hymnal, or "Christos voskres!" for the Paschal Sundays). In one case, I actually wrote the music for one hymn (used on the Sundays of the Great Fast); and in four cases (the two Sundays before Christmas, the Sunday after Christmas, and Theophany) I utilized "western" carol melodies---melodies which were included in the Levkulic Christmas publications.

While we are on this subject: at least three of the standard "Rusyn" carols for the Nativity are either of foreign import (Polish or Slovak origin) or are such common usage in the Slavic Catholic world that it's now impossible to tell where they showed up first. So, it's often historically inaccurate to assume that all "Rusyn" carols are in fact of Rusyn origin.

When I came to the Cathedral, there was a drastic abbreviation of the Compline service, which included RECITED texts (the hymns of the Litija). We have since gone back to the "original" Levkulic book which, though drastically shortened, has true prostopinije melodies for all of the texts. It's not the best solution, but it's better than what was done before. At some point, I hope that the Inter-Eparchial Liturgical Commission tackles the texts of Christmas.

In the morning of Christmas Eve, we sing the Royal Hours with all the attendant Troparia and Stichera appointed, in their proper tones.

Also, in the afternoon of Christmas Eve, we sing the Vespers and Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, all again with the proper melodies.

In all cases, the singing of para-liturgical hymns (while fostered and sung lustily) never takes over or encroaches on the appointed texts of the services.

Much of this is MORE than was done before I came on board the Cathedral Staff.

This is not posted in the interest of self-exculpation, but rather in the interest of accuracy.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

P.S. Who, please, is John Thompson????

Thank you Professor Thompson, I couldn't agree more! If you have the most 'perfect music' in church...the most 'correct' byzantine icons...the most beautiful vestments...and the most uplifting services---you don't have ANYTHING without CHARITY! Without CHARITY, you are simply the 'Church of Latter Day Pharisees'...with everything all pretty on the OUTside...and on the INside filled with 'dead men's bones' and all that stinks! Learn to love the differences in each other...learn to desire NOT to be always right...and then just maybe, you will BEGIN to have a tiny bit of humility?!---then when you have a tiny bit of humility, then you might have a tiny bit of the presence of Christ!

Just a thought from an aging monk.

In Him Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

I'm not here to argue about what others deem important and not important in Plainchant preservation and education. I'm not here to insult people who have produced the new music. I'm just stating my opinion. In the end, if the majority of faithful feel it to be clumsy and cumbersome, most parishes will revert to the older Levkulic arrangements. I just think that by leaving many learned cantors out of the decision making process to be a real shame. How five or six individuals get to make decisions for the entire Metropolia seems a little unfair.

U-C