www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Narrow is the gate . . . . . .

RC@Work,

Since you have chosen not to do anything about your complaints of liturgical abuse in your parish I have no sympathy for you. If you have not even bothered to meet with your pastor to offer your complaints and provide him with an opportunity to address them then it is indeed wrong and possibly sinful for you to post them on this Forum behind his back.

It does not take more than a day or two to organize others with similar complaints into attending the same liturgy and gathering evidence of what you consider to be liturgical abuse. Writing a letter that politely but firmly presents your complaints can be done in a single evening. Your posts on this Forum indicate that you are a decent writer and are quite able to present your arguments. If you are claiming that you are not knowledgeable enough to write such a letter then how is it that you are knowledgeable enough to know there is liturgical abuse? I respectfully suggest that you forgo this forum for a few days until you have presented your case to those in authority. Neither I nor anyone else who participates in this Forum is responsible for the claimed liturgical abuse in your parish. You are.

Respectfully,

Administrator

When I didn't know about the BCC Church and I started an inquiry into Catholicism, a RC priest told me I was a "narrowminded conservative" and I needed to go "elsewhere."

my friend who is RC went to a local church in Raleigh and when he showed the priest he was in clear violation of the General Instruction, the priest loudly told him, "If you don't like the way *I* do mass, go elsewhere." Another time, he wrote a long letter to another priest about a similar problem, and received a condescending one liner, "Dr. Mr. _______ thank you for your letter, I'm sorry you didn't like the way I do mass. Have a nice day."

As far as taking it to the bishop--like he doesn't know what's going on? They had an ecumenical gathering here last month that my Coptic priest friend went to, where they read the Koran from the pulpit! What a witness to our Orthodox brothers! Not!

As far as going to the Nuncio... sounds like a good idea.

anastasios

I don't buy that. When's the last time a BCC priest talked about the nous and its purification, hesychasm, St. Gregory Palamas, the Desert Fathers like St. Anthony and St. Pachomios, our father St. Photios the Great, etc.?

We have lost Orthopraxis and are only now trying to regain it.

anastasios

You misrepresent Ray. He said he was in the process of checking the relevent canons and laws. Give him a break.

anastasios

Administrator ,

1st of all I have complained to the Parish priest. Why should I have to go to the Bishop?

2nd when I do decide to go to the Bishop I want to know what I am talking about. Besides the obvious Liturgical abuses (Nuns giving Homilies) I would like to present a theological / Church law arguement against Glass Chalices, Placing the Tabernacle behind the altar, and reform of modern Architecture. Trust me I am doing my home work.

To give you an example of one of the responses my Local Parish priest gave me:

Me - "Father, why does the Church use Glass Chalices? At home we use Gold Chalices."

Priest - "Son, the church has made reforms since Vatican II. With Glass Chalices the people can see the Body and Blood of our Lord"

Me - "I see Father, but doest the liturgical Norm state that it is preferred to have Un-Breakable chalices. Isn't Glass breakable?"

Priest - "Son, you should not concern yourself with these Church matters. The Bishops make up the laws and we follow the Bishops"


Now, Admin. I have done something! I stop Tithing to my local Church and I found the Byzantine Church. For almost a 1 1/2 I have been going to a Byzantine Catholic Church. I tithe to my Church, Volunteer, Give Food/Money to the poor, receive the Eastern Catholic Magazine, My Wife is in Classed to become Catholic at the Church, I follow all of the Byzantine Traditions (i.e. Great Fast, Prayers, Holy Days (when I can make the 1 hour drive to Church if not I go to RCC), Icon Corner, Did the Vocation Icon, and help out during coffee socials.

3rd. I have been in long detail discussions with my Cousin who is a Nun with the Sisters of Saint Paul who is guiding me on my Spiritual Journey. She recommended I change rites to Byzantine.

4th. I give money to EWTN who supports the St. Josephs Foundation. I have giving a monthly tithe to EWTN for 3 - 4 years now every month.

5th. I pray every night for the Local Bishops/Priest.

Is there anything else you can suggest that I should do?

God Bless!

anastasios,

You said, "I don't buy that. When's the last time a BCC priest talked about the nous and its purification, hesychasm, St. Gregory Palamas, the Desert Fathers like St. Anthony and St. Pachomios, our father St. Photios the Great, etc.?"

I must amend this because I thought hesychasm was a way to explain theos. No, he has not...

So never mind...

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Dear Anastasios,

Re: your post to Dmitri Rostovski.

I think the issue there had more to do with liberal/conservative theology in general, and our bishops are certainly on the conservative side - although I will grant you that they can be either Latin or Eastern.

Our bishops and priests in general are very conservative but, at the same time, would be horrified at the idea of commemorating St Photios or St Gregory Palamas, although not all.

But they are united in the teaching of Patristics of old. A good number would have a problem with Photios or with anything taught by the Orthodox Church following the break of 1054.

Also, I think that one of the most important qualities that an Administrator anywhere can have is courage.

And anyone who can stand up to us on this Forum, as the Administrator has and will, has loads of courage.

I think the Greek Fathers might say, in this case, that if we don't like all that the Administrator has to tell us, that means he is doing his job.

Even if the Administrator corrected or admonished me when I thought I should not have been, it is more spiritually important to obey for the sake of respect of his true leadership to the point of fatherhood here, than to protest.

Obedience is a virtue that comes to me in a very difficult way. That is why it is important for people like me to exercise at every opportunity. It also comes in handy when you're married.

Alex

Anastasios,

I appreciate your points but if one has not presented one's case through the entire chain of command then one does not have the right to come here and complain about it. I am willing to entertain a discussion by anyone arguing that posting their complaints on a Byzantine forum will actually help resolve these concerns in their local parish. I am also willing to entertain a discussion on how he might best go about it.

If RC@Work has observed the things he complains about only once at this past Sunday's liturgy then I might be willing to cut him some slack. But, since he has offered complaints about the state of the Roman Catholic liturgy for several months, I do not think that this is the case. He has had plenty of time to act and has chosen not to do so.



I frequently hear such sermons about all of the topics you raise. Last year the commemoration of St. Photios happened to fall on a Sunday and was the topic of a homily. Most of our parishes use worship guides that have offered a short synopsis of St. Gregory Palamas along with the troparia hymns composed in his honor. His memory is celebrated at least once each year (Second Sunday in the Great Fast) and has been done so for at least the last 20 years. And this coming Sunday the vast majority of our parishes will once again witness the Triumph of Orthodoxy through children's processions with icons and a special blessing for each along with an appropriate homily. Primarily, however, the homily is a time set aside for the priest or deacon to preach on the Gospel that was just proclaimed and how we are to incorporate it into our lives.

I respectfully suggest that complaining about lost Orthopraxis is no way to restore it. Expressing a hunger for it within your local parish is the best way to accomplish this. Those who seek, find. Those who complain rather than seek, do not find.

Administrator

RC@Work,

If you find yourself called to the Byzantine Church – welcome! If you are in the Byzantine Church because you are fleeing something you don't like in the Latin Church you should go back and work to address it.

If, as a Latin Catholic, your priest did not listen to or address the issues you raise you should go back and follow the direction of Matthew 18. It is quite specific in that you should take two or three others with you and present the matter to the authority of those in charge (bishops) and continue to follow the chain of command until it has been exhausted. If you have not yet done this you have a responsibility to do so.

If you are now a Byzantine Catholic I can understand your remaining concern about these issues but I fail to see how posting your complaints on a Byzantine messageboard will help that particular Roman Catholic parish to resolve the issue.

Best wishes,

Administrator

Administrator,

FYI, I am a Re-vert. I was a cradle Catholic who left the Faith became Church of God. Stop going to Church of God and became agnostic for about 10 years. Then watched EWTN about 3-4 years ago and felt like I should go to confession. Have been Catholic since.

I have much to Learn and Re-Learn about the faith before I feel I can write a letter to the Bishop.

Most of what I know about the Catholic Church came from Sister Gaberial my 5th Grade (Irish Nun) teacher.

God Bless!

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Dear +Ray,

There's really no trick to it:

You can begin with either:

Your Excellency, or
Dear Most Reverend Bishop

And to really impress, you can begin with:

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
In Aeternam. Amen.

Start with an opening sentence about how you trust he is in good health all around and the like.

Then move into a brief paragraph about your concern with the goings on at a Mass on and at (give the particulars).

Explain what you felt was troubling to you, without referring to any theological manuals, and how this has led you to seek refuge in the Byzantine Church.

Then just conclude by asking the good Bishop to look into it and see for himself what the problem is.

You can finish by saying something like:

I have the honour to be Your Excellency's humble servant, in Christ

And don't forget to sign . . .

You might wish to start a petition as well.

I've written my bishop and Patriarch oodles of times. I've also written my Head of State, Her Majesty the Queen.

In all cases, a meaningful reply was always forthcoming.

I could do you a draft, if you wish!

Alex

Ortho. Cath.

Thanks! I will write to the Bishop soon! You said, "You might wish to start a petition as well."

I jsut moved to Florida about 1 1/2 ago and I don't know anyone else who is a Catholic down here. In addition, I have never had a Catholic friend before. Most of my friends are either Ex-Catholics (Agnostics) or Protestants. The only time I get to talk to another Catholic about stuff like this is on this Forum or MSN chatrooms. It is hard to meet other Catholics with my interest in the Church because when I went to the local RCC it was so big that I really found it hard to meet people. It doesn't help things either when most of the people are over 65 and are snow birds.

Hopefully, I will meet other Catholics who are having the same problems with there Church as I am and we can do stuff togther to make a difference.

When I tried to get involved with my local RCC my wife and I went to the Bible classes the offered on Thursday night and only 4 people showed up. Yet, I will bet over a thousand attend Masses there. Anyway, we gave that up after about a couple of months. We did try Bingo but the funny thing was that everytime we sat down next to someone it turned out they were not Catholic just visiting for the Bingo. Go Figure!

So, until I get the chance to meet other Catholics I guess I will have to stick to this forum, IRC, MSN Chatrooms, etc...

God Bless!

Dear +Ray,

No problem, consider me to be among your very best of friends, even if only in cyberspace .

Agnostics, you say? That word comes from the Latin "Agnosco" that really has to do with "Not making a choice."

I tell agnostics that they really HAVE made a choice in saying "We won't commit since we don't know."

Therefore, that term is rather meaningless. But it is a little less strident than "atheist."

A fellow at a banquet in Vienna once said he was an atheist and that he would gladly sell off his place in heaven.

To this, his dining neighbour replied that, "In Austria, we never take business dealings lightly. If you, sir, can prove to me that you HAVE a place in Heaven, I will gladly give you $150,000.OO in U.S. currency for it."

Can you believe it? In US currency!

What a Canadian could do with that amount in US currency . . .

Alex

A Catholic at Work (sorry, you went to the trouble of coming up with that creative sign, so I'll use it )

I can understand where you've been and what you've gone through. If you would like, I will email you with multiple resources to help you in writing your letter to your Ordinary. I have a large library (traditional books and CD-ROM) and would have no problem emailing you the places that prohibit glass chalices, nuns preaching, etc. I can give you official sources to cite like GIRM, to the actual documents of VCII (which are so often misunderstood and co-opted by those on the fringe left) etc. I also have a good relationship with my Latin Bishop and have had many an occasion to email him and address some things I had problems with. I think you will find that your Ordinary will be willing to listen to you, but remember the holy office he holds and always be respectful; lest you get no where.

Let me know and I will email it to you.

The Administrator is right in his warnings of "switching" from Latin to Byzantine. I found myself there as well after shenanigans at a Latin Parish. So, I took some time to learn as much as possible about the Eastern Catholic Churches that are here where I live. IN so doing I have fallen in love. I have yet to formally "switch", but I attend their services instead of Latin ones and I am meeting with the deacon to learn as much as possible.

I would suggest doing that as well. Do not leave the Latin Church because of scandal; do not give them the satisfaction. Rather, move if that is where you are called.

Slan go foill,
Donnchadh

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Donnchadh ]

My deepest apologies to all.

What started out as an earnest question to learn more about certain ascetical practices that, perhaps, are not stessed enough in my Church has become, for lack of a better word, a thread concerning the *poor* state of the Roman Catholic Church. That was not my intent.

I am Roman Catholic and that is where I am home. My family is Roman Catholic as are all of our friends. That doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge some of her faults. Every family has its problems. I don't need to air the dirty laundry here.

Please accept my apology and let's let this thread end here.

Peace and a blessed Lent!

Rob