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Donnchadh,

Thanks! Yes, I could use your help I will email the first part of next week. My wifes parents are in town this weekend.

I am diffently being pulled in the Eastern direction because of the Theology. I have been doin a lot of reading on St. Basil, St. Ephrem, etc... I really like the Mystery behind the theology of these Early Church Fathers. The only problem that I am facing is things like Advent candles, scapulars, rosary, etc... All Latin things that were engraved in my head at an early age. If I go East I want to go all the way.

God Bless!

Glass or gold chalices? In case of breakage assuming the priest is clumsy? That's it?

We Byzantines have similiar problems. Last week the altar flowers in my parish were wilted and ugly.

K.

aRCG,

The only problem that I am facing is things like Advent candles, scapulars, rosary, etc... All Latin things that were engraved in my head at an early age. If I go East I want to go all the way.

Be at peace.

As you know, Latin practices do not belong in Byzantine churches as there are enough Byzantine practices and no need to import any from another Church.

But for life at home, consider my over-50% rule. One can only live in one patrimony at a time, so one or another should make up more than half your religious practices. If East is where you're moving to and Latin is where you came from, wear those scapulars and pray that Rosary if you want. It would be spiritually dangerous to gut your devotional life before really settling into your new home. If in time you want to replace some or all of these things with Byzantine practices, wonderful. If not, don't worry about it.

http://oldworldrus.com

Serge,

I am really confused now. I have already made the error of "Rite" vs. "Church" with much info available from my deacon at the Byzantine Church saying one thing and others saying another.

With this in mind, I must say I am even more confused now as per your statement. I have to tell you that we – at the Byzantine Church I am attending – do say the rosary and corporately mind you. We do so with the priest and the entire congregation.

It is done every three Sundays before the Divine Liturgy and on the other two Sundays and we are involved with Byzantine devotions.

So, I am very confused over your statement of, "Latin practices do not belong in Byzantine churches as there are enough Byzantine practices and no need to import any from another Church."

I have also met Russian Americans there who are in their late 60s or so from Russia, or at least that is the impression I get, who do wear a scapular and even a four way medal, which you point out are Latin devotions and not Byzantine.

Have I been lead down the primrose path again; this time by the priest and the entire congregation?

Or is this a desired position of others who may be more, well, for lack of a better term, orthodox?

I have to tell you that I was never as confused about Byzantine traditions, customs and faux pas when I was simply speaking with the deacon and others there, as I am here now on this MB. If there is no 'set in stone' approach, what is one to do?

Frankly, the more I am confused by everything here, the more I am seriously thinking about going back full time to the west, as I did not like the confusion there to begin with, but why move from one confused state to another?

How frustrating. Simply frustrating.

Donnchadh,

No need to be confused — I was referring to Latin practices at home.

The Orthodox-oriented who used to be more visible here agree that it is objectively right, and current Vatican policy agrees, that Latin practices do not belong in church in the Byzantine and other Eastern Catholic Churches.

So technically speaking, having the Rosary corporately in church before Liturgy is wrong. Not evil. Not un-small-o-orthodox. Just incorrect.

But for many older Byzantine Catholics, who remember when "Greek Catholic' was the name they went by (pre-1950s), Latinizations are a longstanding part of church life.

A lot of bandwidth has been used saying with much common sense that such must be dealt with charitably. Promote Byzantine practices in church, but do so gently.

So: even though they are wrong, don't give your church a hard time about that Rosary. But realize that this is not ideal Byzantine practice.

As for the Russians wearing scapulars and four-way medals, fine. That's private devotion.

There are Russians at your church? Interesting. Is it a Russian Catholic church (where one doesn't find Latin practices), Ruthenian (I have met exactly one ethnic Russian there, owing to marriage), Ukrainian (given the nationalistic bent of that Church, Russians worshipping there seems unlikely) or some other kind of Byzantine Catholic?

http://oldworldrus.com

Serge,

It is a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church. Fr. Frank (I can't quite pronounce, let alone spell, the other part of his name correctly) is the one whom I emailed some time ago and he is the one who invited me to visit the parish and told me of the three devotions before the Liturgy. He is a straight shooter and I can not understand how he would do something like this if it were "wrong".

There are several Russian-Americans. They are older and in fact, one of them is the Deacon's wife. She loves to go on about this and that over there and how things have changed etc. She is a nice lady and very devout.

So, unless I am wrong again, it is a Byzantine Church with Russian, or Ruthenian, emphasis (for lack of a better word.) It is not Greek at all. There is a Greek Orthodox Cathedral here, but that is Orthodox and not Catholic.

My question now is why would the priest not only allow, but also do, these things you have said is wrong?

I have to tell you that after talking with people here and taking what they have to say and comparing it to what they have said at the parish, well, I am just as confused and dismayed as when I was attending Latin (Novus Ordo) services. I had not formally applied for the "transfer" as they put it, as I was still trying to learn about this church. They suggested attending and putting off transferring until I was certain. That is a good thing, as I am most confused now.

I will be talking to them this Sunday about these things. Hopefully, I can speak with father. To be honest it does not make much sense to "transfer" from one church with mass confusion to another. It simply isn't worth the headache. Yet, I have fallen in love with most everything at this Byzantine parish (except, I still miss statues, but all of the icons are very nice and I still do not always understand what is being said and done).

Hello Donn,

Is this the parish of Fr. Chrysostom Frank? I think he was formerly an Orthodox priest.

In Christ,
Anthony

Donnchadh,

Take your time walking over this bridge, while you can turn around... before you get to the other side. In the Catholic communion one is usually allowed to transfer to another Church only once in one's life, so be sure this is something you want.

It is a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church. Fr. Frank (I can't quite pronounce, let alone spell, the other part of his name correctly) is the one whom I emailed some time ago and he is the one who invited me to visit the parish and told me of the three devotions before the Liturgy.

I am fairly sure there is a Fr Chrysostom ("CHRIS-suss-tum' or "chris-SOSS-tum') Frank in Colorado who is a former Orthodox priest. Or perhaps your present church's priest is following Byzantine custom and is Fr Firstname, rather than Fr Lastname like Latin practice, and has a difficult Slavic last name?

He is a straight shooter and I can not understand how he would do something like this if it were "wrong".

Perhaps most of the congregation are older, born Ruthenians who remember latinizations from their churches back home in Pennsylvania, Ohio or Slovakia, and Father is accommodating them. The root of such practices often is a mistaken notion that adopting them "proves you're Catholic' as if the Byzantine customs of the Orthodox aren't good enough. A view that in times past, when the Orthodox-minded were on this forum in greater and more vocal numbers, would have vehemently opposed. And Vatican policy, even before the 1960s, is clear: thou shalt not mix'n'match rites in church. So again, this practice is incorrect but not heretical. Ask Father nicely about it if you like ("Why, when the Vatican says not to?') but don't give him or the congregation a hard time about it, no matter his answer.

I have read of former Orthodox priests who for some reason fall into the mistake you describe, for the reason I describe, and perhaps there is pressure from the bishop to do this. Ruthenian bishops in this country are still very latinized and resist even Vatican pressure to stop and change this, because they fear things Byzantine/Orthodox and perceive them wrongly as "less Catholic'. Again, unlike the more egregious abuses described here of some Roman Catholics in the Novus Ordo, none of these practices are malicious, heretical or even evil, but they are mistakes.

The only Orthodox-turned-Catholic priest I have met was a Catholic layman to begin with and does not latinize at all in church. Like me he uses some Latin private devotions (actually I haven't used such lately, having switched to Lance Weakland's version of the Byzantine hours at home), but as I said before that's fine.

There are several Russian-Americans. They are older and in fact, one of them is the Deacon's wife. She loves to go on about this and that over there and how things have changed etc. She is a nice lady and very devout.

Great! I'm happy for them.

So, unless I am wrong again, it is a Byzantine Church with Russian, or Ruthenian, emphasis (for lack of a better word.) It is not Greek at all. There is a Greek Orthodox Cathedral here, but that is Orthodox and not Catholic.

You have demonstrated one reason why Ruthenians in America stopped calling themselves "Greek Catholics' back in the 1950s. It was too confusing! The term, still used in Europe, doesn't necessarily mean ethnic Greeks (and usually refers to eastern Slavs anyway). "The Greek Church' and "the Greek Rite' are old-fashioned terms for Byzantine (including Orthodox) Christianity and its Byzantine Rite, based on the fact that the Byzantine Empire was Greek.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]