www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Where are the icons on the iconostasis?

Yes, I think Dave is correct. A Templon it is. Why the templon is still there and whether or not they are still accepted is my next question. I think renovation is likely. Stolen icons..I know that was an epidemic in other countries but I doubt that's the case here. I can believe there was an 18th century iconostasis here before too. In the past before the schism the templon appears to have been all there was and than by the 12th century the templons addition/transformation of icons into iconostasis was completed and thats what dominated later churches. Not to say there wasnt a few templons with icons on them even in the 9th century. Here's a picture showing a templon similar to the one originally in Hagia Sofia if I'm not mistaken.
Rekonstrukce starokřesťansk�ho templonu, c. 580 AD [orthodoxia.cz]

That is a western looking iconostasis if I ever saw one on the irvine church! almost an altar/ communion rail? It's interesting how these modern designs are just as common in certain eastern orthodox/catholic churches as the western ones.

As it was recommended to me 3 months ago on this message board, I am tremendouly enjoying reading Stepan Runciman's "The Great Church in Captivity" All libraries should have this book in them. I'll try Ostrogorsky after this books finished.

Both Eastern and Western Churches had altar screens like that...that's how it was.

Oh darn it...if I can just go home and get a CD of photos of my trip to Assisi...there was a Church there (can't remmy where) that has an iron screen like that...surrounding the Altar...

I thought, "WOW! How ancient!"

I guess over the years...it's been adapted few times...to a point where in the pre-Vatican II Churches used communion rail in the Roman Churches...

And Iconostasis for Eastern Churches (most specifically Byzantine ones).

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

I think that contraption in the Irvine church is horrible, and I would gleefuly take a sledgehammer to it if I were the priest there.

Whoever had the silly idea of making the despotic icons look like pages in a book has more than a few screws loose.

On the other hand, the mosaic behind the holy table is quite nice.

The website of the Macedonian Orthodox Church has numerous photos of churches and monasteries where the templon is still in use.

Strumica [mpc.org.mk]

Hamzali [mpc.org.mk]

Vodoča [mpc.org.mk]

Veljusa [mpc.org.mk] (This chapel only has the lower part of the templon, sans columns and lintel)

Vodoča [mpc.org.mk] (Another "partial templon")

Note that these churches do have the main icons of Christ and the Theotokos to the right and the left of the templon. I believe that this was the older place for these icons (as can be seen in the frescos of many older churches and monasteries); over time, these icons shifted onto/into the templon.

And, as John K mentioned, New Skete monastery in NY has a templon [newsketemonks.com] (but modified in design to include icons).

Dave

Go Dave, Go Dave!
You know, I think the key is some form of visual seperation between the altar (for our non-Eastern brethren the whole area is called the Altar in our tradition, not just the Holy Table).

I like the templon in these pictures posted here. I haven't looked at the links yet.

I'm kind of easy going. While I love the full icon screen that is all encompassing and even has the curtain, I also love these templon.
I just love church!!! I'm glad we have the ability to have these buildings and that we have the freedom to go to church and worship. If the church has a complete all out Russian style wall icon screen that goes from floor to ceiling or if it has a little templon, all is good! I even know churches that don't have any Icon screens...
not everyone has the money!!

Christ is Risen!

Thanks, Dave ("Chtec"), for those very interesting sites and pictures. It's fascinating to see that the templon is still in use in Europe.

Priest Thomas

Dear Thymiato you said:

I say:

I dissagree with you. Although I too find the mosaic outstanding in every sense, (and rare because of it's costliness), the icons within the catagory of a book, that might contain a mention of who the saint is, or/and a prayer, I consider a spiritually profound and lovely touch.

That the iconostas doesn't extend to the top covering the beauty of the mosaic and altar, is a creative way of allowing us to be part of the service, while retaining the long held tradition of an iconostas.

Zenovia

Christ is Risen!

While I would take issue with the tone of Thymiato's post, I would agree with him/her in principle.

While some might argue that the iconostas "separates" the laity from the sanctuary, that is certainly not the intent, and a bit of good teaching on the part of a knowledgeable priest or layperson could dispel that misunderstanding quite quickly. In fact, it provides just the opposite opportunity, to unite us to heaven, not to separate anyone from anything.

And let's also make it clear that an iconostas does not "hide" any type of actions from anyone. There's really not much else going on in there that's not going on in the nave but, hopefully, worship. The celebrant does not have his "back to the people" - he's facing God just like everyone else. He's the presider, the leader, and he's got to worship God too.

I do understand what this Greek church was trying to do, but I believe, just my opinion, that they took a bit too much liberty with the received tradition.

One need only view the various successful interpretations of an iconostas throughout the world to know that one can stay within the tradition and still accomplish the (local?) goal of not giving the (false) impression of separation. I believe that this particular church went too far.

Just my opinion.

Priest Thomas

Zenovia:

Christ is Risen!

I like the openness of the Iconostasion as well, but I think the despotic icons looking like pages in a bible (?) is silly, and a capitulation the protestant climate of Orange County. I'm very surprised the bishop approved the design. It could have been executed in a much more artistic fashion.

With every good wish,

Michael

Here are a few examples of pre-Reformation rood screens that have been restored in English Churches:

Ranworth Roodscreen [geocities.com]

Ludham Roodscreen [geocities.com]


For more examples of rood screens click the link below:

Norfolk Churches [norfolkchurches.co.uk]