www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology A Tale of Two Churches

As someone who has lurked here for awhile, I decided to jump hip deep into the forum pool. The talk about the New Liturgy has been an interesting one and I wanted to provide some insight from Ohio and something that I have seen.

A great comparison of an Orthodox Church in America parish that celebrates a more complete liturgy versus a Byzantine Catholic Church in America parish that uses a 'chopped up' Liturgy exists in the Tremont neighborhood of Cleveland. The OCA parish is St. Theodosius (the church in the movie the Deer Hunter, www.sttheodosius.org) [sttheodosius.org)] and the BCA parish is Holy Ghost. They were both built around the same time period (early 1900s) and are about a mile at the most apart. Tremont was once the main Slavic enclave from 1900 to about the 1960s. Then the neighborhood experienced a mass exodus of Slavs and became a run down neighborhood. In recent years it has experienced a renaissance and is a chic place to live in certain areas but still has a way to go overall, however the trend is up. Both churches were packed and standing room only in the old days, and experienced reduced membership during the exodus from the neighborhood, but a visit to either parish today will give you an unbelievable difference in the direction that these two parishes are going.

Holy Ghost, and I am not kidding or exaggerating, the last time I was there which was about 5 months ago, gets 7 � 20 people on a Sunday (note: they have no Saturday services). There is a gentleman that attends there (God bless him) who has something like 7 or 8 kids, if it weren�t for his family there would be only one or two youth there. The other people there have to be in there 60s, 70s, 80s. It doesn�t take a genius to figure out what the parish will look like in 10-20 years. And if the gentleman with many children ever leaves, will the last one out please turn out the lights? Collections are something like $60 to $110 depending on the Sunday. On Pascha(which is Gregorian Calendar) there is no need to arrive early, you�ll have your pick of a seat pretty easily and be out of there in about an hour. Clearly if something doesn�t change, the church�s days are numbered. (This is not meant to criticize or embarrass Fr. Hustzi who is the pastor. He inherited this situation.) They have a girl who wears a vestment but stands outside of the icon screen and participates in the liturgy when things take place outside of the icon screen.

Compare this with St. Theodosius where they have Vespers on Saturday, celebrate a considerably longer liturgy (Sudays 1 hour 30 minutes, presanctified 1hour 40 minutes). People stand for most of the liturgy, they have NO kneelers, they have a curtain, etc. and this Great Fast had services EVERY NIGHT AND EVERY DAY. St. Theodosius gets about 50-60 for Vespers and 200 people for Divine Liturgy on Sundays. On Pascha (which is Julian Calendar) you better get there at 11 pm so that when they start at midnight you�re not standing outside because it is packed to the brim. They are growing rather than shrinking. The next 10-20 years looks very promising. They completed an indoor restoration project a few years ago and the church is even more beautiful inside because of it. They are currently raising funds to renovate the exterior of the church. I don�t know collections but can reason that it is MUCH greater than the $100 on a good Sunday that Holy Ghost gets. They also have one of the best choirs I have ever heard in the United States.

How can two churches, built around the same time by very similar people with very similar backgrounds only a mile apart be so radically different today in terms of practice, attendance, and future direction? I�ll tell you, but sadly many here will lack the courage to take the constructive criticism and lessons to be learned. Holy Ghost has liberalized throughout the years and continues to even today by having a girl vested and serving in church. The Pataki Liturgy is celebrated in all its brilliance for the 7-20 people who attend. The writing is on the wall, Holy Ghost�s days are numbered. St. Theodosius has stayed truer to Tradition. Short cuts are not an option. Converts are the norm rather than a rarity, and converts conform to the church rather than the church conforming to the converts whims and wants. Evangelization takes place. Mission churches are supported. Confession (remember that) is practiced by the people and is a prerequisite to communion.

This situation should not be the only thing looked at when considering what direction to take our Byzantine Catholic Church, but it should be taken into consideration and examined to learn from and improve the growth and future of our church. Something is going on here that we can learn from.

Monomakh

Welcome to the forum.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice, Moderator

This is an all too familiar post. Your points are well made. I just went to the St. Vlads seminary website and saw many pictures of young married men being ordained to the diaconate and presbyterate. I for one am a believer in the Eastern Catholic vocation - to be an Orthodox Christian in union with Rome, but it will take courage on the part of both the clergy and the laity to embrace it. We have seen it at Father Thomas Loya's BCC parish in Homer Glenn, IL(Annunciation), Holy Transfiguration Melkite in McClean, and St. Elias Ukrainian in Ottawa. These three churches are to me a "constellation" to be emulated as closely as possible in North America.

If we do not take the calling seriously, there may only be THREE parishes left!

I think we are all concerned about the future of the BC Church and this is just one of many examples. Many suggestions have been offered. All it would take would be a clear acceptance of a coherent direction. No such action has been taken. I think some serious, hopefully not disasterous, changes are in the very near future.

CDL

I just read Gordon's post. I agree with him completely. Where will we find the leadership?

You are right on the mark, Monomakh! People want to attend a church that actually believes in something and offers stability. People don't want to come to Liturgy each week wondering what kind novelty is in store for them. What is sad is that parishes that have liberalized think that more of the same is going to fix the situation.

Thanks for the post, Monomakh. Sadly nothing is surprising, it is all predictable. It is status quo for about the last 20 years or so - less in some places, more in others.

Tradition sells, spiritually speaking. The thirst is for something solid, objectively good, true and beautiful. If we cannot provide the transcendent liturgical beauty, completely founded on tradition, that brings "heaven on earth" to a firm and tangible reality in our parishes, it is dead in the water.

Within Orthodoxy - ROCOR has little missions and communities going up all over the place, including monasteries - the real crown and apex of the evangelical endeavor. I spoke with one ex-biker last week who is considering a monastic vocation with ROCOR. So far he really likes what he sees, smells, and hears.

The same is true in the Latin Church - orders and communities such as the Fraternity of St. Peter, traditional monastic orders, etc. are doing very well.

Celebrating the fullness of the tradition in our parishes (as we can humanly strive to do) has to be a central concern and prime motivation, without concern for the "one hour" or whatever cutoff, without the false need to "accomodate" with horizontally inclusive language, the latest trends - is what will transform the world.

I agree with Soloviev ultimately that the greatest misfortune to befall man in recorded history was the separation of Eastern and Western Christianity, and like him I believe that reunion needs to be accomplished at all costs.

It can indeed be done in both the country and the city, as St. Elias in Brampton and St. Michael's in New York City both show with married pastors and exemplorary liturgical life. But these sort of parish centers need to be the source - and eventually the norm for a larger scale transformation, or rather transfiguration, to happen - and not the scorn of laity and clergy within the Church they sometimes become.

Yes, leadership - we are our own worst enemies far too many times. Unfortunately convincing the hierarchy to allow such an "experiment in tradition" can be a most difficult part. We must be completely and painfully honest - what we have and are doing is not working. Radical and rapid transformation is the only logical solution at this point.

But certainly possible, for those who can not only see the vision, and hear the call, but those who can see what is possible.
FDD

Just wondering... has anyone actually asked others why they have left Holy Ghost?

Dear Monomakh,

When the "New Liturgy" goes into existence, I made up my mind that one option is to join St. Theodious. I went to many services there this Lent, and celebrated Pascha there too. There's nothing like getting a cramp in your foot because you stood the entire 2.5 hours. That's Easter!

I took a friend with me (it was his first Easter there) and he remarked, "They get it!" It's true, when we came in from processing around the church, they all greeted each other with kisses on the shoulder proclaiming to one another, "Christ is Risen." Take my BC parish the week earlier, where people complained that they had to endure 2.5 hours just to get their baskets blessed.

It really is catechesis, because some Byzantine Churches are pulling this off....one in Ohio and another in Pennsylvania, and I know for a fact that these two priests are very good homilists who teach their people. I could go on and on, and you really don't want to get me started!

Maybe some day we can meet at the coffee shop in Tremont and talk about the sad state of the Byzantine Church. It's so difficult to watch your church crumble right in front of you. I guess at this point all we can do in the pews is pray.

Just a side note, the cornerstone at St. Theodious reads.....Russian Orthodox, Greek Catholic.

JMHO, Cathy

Remember when the Titanic struck the iceberg? Folks had to get off the ship to survive.

Sitting in pews is one of the problems.

"I guess at this point all we can do in the pews is pray."

CDL

What can we do to help our church survive?

So long as the little ships are still attached to the bark of Peter, I'm fine!

"Little ships" like the mustard seed Russian Catholic communities in Dublin, New York, Denver San Francisco and Melbourne may be one of the best hopes....

Gordo

Monomakh brings up some excellent points.

As I posted a while back in the Evangelization part of this Forum, we as Eastern Catholics have one major problem that can count for empty pews, closed parishes, and Eparchies the size of Cathedral parishes 40 years ago.

The problem:

Lack of idenity.

The solution:

A return to Traditional Orthodoxy.

Look at the flourishing parishes in all of our Eparchies, from OCA to ROCOR to UGCC to the BCC. It's the Tradition-orientated parishes that are flourishing.

Why? That's an easy one-- they have identity.

The parishioners are energetic, educated faithful who live their faith outside of DL on Sunday. Prayer is central in the family, Theosis is practiced, and all Liturgical services are very reflective to what St. Volodymyr's envoys saw in Constantinople. These faithful see Heaven on Earth.

To put it all in plain English-- it's the smells, bells, and whistles that Evangelizes. People want something solid, and that is the wonderful Tradiitions we have in the East.

Our bishops (BCC and UGCC, respectively) should hold a Sobor here in the Diaspora. These issues need to be addressed, because there needs to be a coherent unity among our Eparchies. And from this Sobor should be a two focus plan, IMO: Education and Theosis. There needs to be much more support in the formation of our priests. There needs to be an end to Latinized seminaries. If only our Churches had a seminary like St. Vlads or Jordanville. With education comes a more central focus on the monastics in our Church. I never, I mean NEVER have heard anything from our priests or Bishops about any of our monasteries or their importantce to our survival.

Theosis should be taught and encouraged to be practiced in our parishes, and this comes from the example that our priests should give. Priests rooted firmly in the Eastern Tradition would not only know about this crucial part of our Tradition, but they would also practice it. Thank God for the Sheptytsky Institute. But if our priests practice it, then our parishes would be come truly, holy communities of faithful, not just places to go to buy stuffed cabbage and kovbasa before Christmas and Easter.

Pentecost is comming up very, very soon. We all need to pray hard for our Churches, for our Hierarchy, for our Clergy and religious. We need to pray for a new Pentecost, otherwise, its only a matter of years.

Kudos, Monomakh. You nailed it right on the head.

Praying for a rebirth,
-uc

In my experience that's fairly normal for an Orthodox parish. We stand for everything but the homily. We also have full Orthros instead of 4th and 6th hours, so Sunday morning services are usually about two and a half hours from start to end.

Our priest is from the Cleveland area and he has served before at St. Theodosius. On top of being a beautiful and church and a vibrant Orthodox community, he says they have done a good job reaching out to the non Orthodox community around them.

Andrew

HEY--speak for yourself!!

We Greek Orthodox love our pews and/or chairs, and we love sitting too!

St. Philaret of Moscow said �It is better to sit and think of God, than to stand and think of your legs�.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice