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uc -

You nailed it bro. It is time to honestly reassess the state of the unia. Not to bring into question, but to its full fruition as a union of churches. A Sobor is a marvellous idea...and include the Romanians, Russian Catholics and Melkites as well. IMHO, it should be a pan-Byzantine Sobor for North America.

I would say that instead of "education", the focus should be mission and theosis (transfiguration). "Education" seems to have an insular focus - we need to a gameplan to evangelize in the pews and outside of it.

And we should see our worship as "missionary"...

I would also offer that we should look for opportunities to embrace the new UGCC catechism as a tool for pan-Byzantine evangelization in North America.

I'm afraid that if something doesn't happen soon, an opportunity will be missed that may not return.

Not to mention that I find it painful when I read posts like Karen's. The loss of Orthodox minded BC's like her will only accelerate our demise as a church. Somehow the bishops need to know this...I think some do, but not all.

Gordo

Hey, I said fairly normal.

Yes, when I've been to Greek churches they tend to do a stand/sit routine. The only ACROD church I've been to did something similar. I have to admit I find it distracting and prefer just to stand.

Andrew

I am currently not a member of any parish because some problems, which I am not going to discuss, have forced me to leave the local UGCC.

While there is a local BCC, I'm not even seriously considering it as a result what I have read about the "New Liturgy". I left the Novus Ordo 10 years ago because of nonsense like this.

Other forum members have said earlier that the Orthodox Church has been doing well because it has maintained tradition. I have a feeling it is about to get another "shot in the arm".

"Our bishops (BCC and UGCC, respectively) should hold a Sobor here in the Diaspora."

We've been begging for this for some time now. I can't understand why we don't have one.

CDL

because....human nature is to be conflict averse. Why swim into a change situation?

Of course, the alternative is death with a fizzle.

Gordo, who got tired of translating his name from the Latin and has now gone with Hebrew

I think it is not only staying true to tradition as you say, but being linked in to a world of living tradition. St. Theodosius is linked in to a broader chain of Orthodox spirituality by its very nature of being an Orthodox Church. It is not a community on its own; it draws from the well fed by the other Orthodox churches, the monasteries, and so on. It draws from all that joins with it in the communion of faith.

That is I think more than anything else why a St. Theodosius can exist, grow and move forward, even in a place that at least at one time was down on its heels. They don�t have to try and find their identity, make things up as they go along, or struggle on their own. They must simply tap in to the deposit which is already theirs. That is what will invigorate those already there and will bring new people in.

That is why I think not only St. Theodosius, but Orthodoxy itself will continue to grow.

Andrew

You know, all this traditional talk is nice, but I hate to say it, the Bishops aren't buying it. I know first hand that the Pitaki Liturgy is loved by more than one bishop, and celebrating the full Ruthenian Recension is frowned upon big time. It starts at the top, and the top doesn't see the traditional Liturgy as an issue. When the bishops surround themselves with Latinzers or priests comfortable with the way things are, what do you think you're going to get? All the traditionalists are in the hinter-lands....do you think that's by accident???? I know of one priest who faithfully wears a kamalavka....but lo and behold when he's around "mixed" clergy, he doesn't wear it! Probably doesn't want transferred back to Minnesota! (I don't think it has fur on it!)

Besides, what do you do with a bishop who doesn't know when to close the curtain during the Divine Liturgy???? That says a lot, and it's not reassuring to clergy. Then you have a BC parish who's participating in Divine Mercy Sunday to try to attract Roman Catholics to the church. This same church during Lent turned Presanctified into a happy liturgy! H-e-l-l-o..................

Until we have a strong Archbishop who lays down the law, we're getting nowhere fast, and I'm afraid the light we're drawn to is heading us straight toward the iceberg!

Well in fact you are for the most part preaching to the choir. I don't know anyone here who has ever taken any position but urgency on the restoration of vespers, matins, pre-sanctified etc. The importance of evangelization is clearly brought home by comparing churches in which "converts are the norm rather than a rarity", but again this is not a controversial topic here.

On the other hand if you - and others - really want to answer the question posed, rather than just use it to grind favorite axes, you might begin by being more careful in your observations and not limiting them to these cherry-picked churches. The OCA parish, after all, is a Catherdral Parish. This likely gives some staying power in a demographically shifting neighborhood that a local parish wouldn't have. Maybe the OCA parish is more aptly compared in attendance and practice to St. John the Baptist. Or maybe a fair, informative comparison can be made between, e.g., our St. Nicholas and their SS. Peter and Paul in Lorain. Both we and the OCA have over a dozen parishes in the Cleveland area; there are many possibilities for comparison.

djs,

I don't know the churches in Lorain well enough to comment. If you or others do I would be open to hear about it.

I simply found it interesting that two churches in close proximity, built around the same time by people with very similar backgrounds are moving in two different directions. After exploring the situation, I came to a conclusion. You can disagree with that conclusion, although it seems that you disagree with the subjects chosen in the comparison period. The main point is that I think we can learn from these two churches what to and not to do especially in terms of evangelization and preserving tradition. If you wish to ignore what is going on with Holy Ghost then you can. fyi, Holy Ghost once long ago had the highest number of attendance and membership of any church in the Cleveland area. Now 7-20 people on Sundays. That's not a comparision that is a fact. It appears from your post that you are in favor of traditional restoration yet are upset with those who favor it which I don't understand.

Since you've decided to interpret an opportunity to understand and reverse the decline in our church as an opporutinity to engage in a spitting contest, well I'd really rather not. But since you brought it up.

I've been to St. John's Byzantine Catherdral. You would be disappointed in the conclusion and results. St. Theodosius would outperform Holy Ghost (the 'cherry picked' one as you put it) and St. John's combined in collections and attendance or anything you want to compare it to. BTW, St. John's doesn't do anything different from Holy Ghost in terms of Liturgy and innovations minus the altar girl outside the altar.

As a Byzantine Catholic it doesn't give me any pleasure in seeing the OCA having more success than the BCA. Something must me happening and I would like to find out what that is. If you think that that is having an axe to grind then oh well.

Hopefully your Lorain comparison comes through for you, because nowhere else in the Cleveland area do I see a ray of hope for you to justify your last post.

Monomakh

Monomakh's last post has given me a thought....

....about cathedral parishes.

Cathedral's are historically the seat of an (Arch)eparchy's bishop, so shouldn't a cathedral have all the proper liturgical services since it is the bishop's main church?

I would think that should be the case. I would imagine that in any OCA/ROCOR/Antochian, etc. cathedral one would find all liturgical services in accordance with the church calendar and Tradition, no?

So then shouldn't the cathedral be an example for all the parishes in that eparchy?

How many of our cathedrals are like that?

This brings us to the larger problem. If a bishop's cathedral doesn't set an example for all the priests and parishes, then doesn't that show that there is something majorly lacking with our hierarchy?

What about when a bishop visits any of your parishes. What is the Divine Liturgy like? I have seen a bishop visit a parish and didn't celebrate a Hierarchal DL. I have also seen a Metropolitan make an official visit to a parish where he didn't celebrate a Hierarchal DL, but rather a recited DL of St. John Chrysostom during the Great Fast! At least the Metropolitan came in a robe with a riassa. I have seen many of our bishops wear a Roman shirt, sometimes without a collar, let alone a Panagia.

If any one looks at the OCA website, the standard procedure for a visiting hierarch is Vespers on Saturday, then Matins and DL on Sunday, with full vesting. And you will almost always see a deacon, if not more than one or two, present.

If we can't even get our Liturgical life in proper order, then how can we expect them to lead the way in evangelization, missions, returning to Traditional Orthodoxy etc., etc.? I don't know how many times I have tried to get in touch with my bishop, or even talk to him, but like usual, there are no where to be found.

This is why we need something to unite our faithful. The faithful need to see the presence of our hierarchy in the midst of the Church, not just on parish visits every 5 years. People respond to Tradition. Even Pope John Paul II had that one figured out when he wrote Orientale Lumen. Yet, none of our bishops have taken heed that I have seen. Some can't even get parish visitations down.

Unfortunately this is a sad, sad situation we are facing. I guess all we can do is pray, and then pray some more.

-uc

Surprise: our bishops are not all the sack-suited a-liturgical imitation CEOs that some pessimists evidently think.

I hesitate to write in praise of specific hierarchs among the living - not that there are no hierarchs who deserve to be praised, but it is precisely those hierarchs who would be grieved to be singled out for praise. But the same principle surely allows us to praise those who are now in the Heavenly Kingdom.

At the top of that list in North America is indisputably Archbishop Joseph (Raya). If you had the privilege and joy of knowing His Eminence, I rest my case. If you did not, you have my sympathy.

Bishop Isidore of Toronto surely deserves to be remembered - a hierarch of courage and consistency, loving his flock and beloved by them, who presided over a marvelous work of repristination in the Eparchy of Toronto (it was he who ordained Father Roman Galadza, who blessed the founding of Saint Elias Church and who consecrated the beautiful temple of that parish).

Patriarch Maximos V of holy memory took a keen interest in the Church in North America, and spent much time visiting North America. To know him was to appreciate a living link with the Holy Fathers. He preached in season and out that the Church is not an ethnic refuge, but is by her very nature a mission to all the world.

And so on. Those who want lamentable bishops can find them - and those who want good, holy bishops can find them (sometimes one bishop can appear to fit both categories, which is a subject in itself). But folding our hands and weeping "we have no good bishops!" is utterly foolish, besides being grossly unfair.

Incognitus

As a matter of fact Cleveland has a cathedral (OCA) but the bishop resides elsewhere.

It seems that the practice in the OCA is to retain the designation of cathedral for any parish that once had a bishop. The diocese of the Midwest has at least four cathedrals: one in Cleveland, one in Minneapolis, and two in Chicago (there may be others). Archbishop Job actually resides in Chicago.

I do agree that 'at the very least' a cathedral should have all of the liturgical services, but I also feel that ordinary parishes should also offer these to the best of their ability.

I cannot imagine a valid excuse not to, if the parish has the average amount of resources. In the OCA - Midwest every parish offers vespers (that I am aware of) Saturday night. (With the possible exception of some missions, but I doubt that) That's when we come to confession. A weekend without vespers would be unthinkable, Saturday evening not the time for a 'Mass'.

+T+
Michael

I agree a Sobor is a start in the right direction.

There is already one scheduled and the topics are just what we need. Perhaps the ruling hierarch would invite us?

Check it out at: http://www.acrod.org/Sobor2006/schedule.html

djs does bring up a valid point - as often indeed the grass does seem greener on the other side - but any kind of comparison is wrought with subjectivity. But looking at a larger sample and comparison, at least liturgically, yes, many of those observations would likely bear out.

But certainly not always - no less than Bishop Tikhon of the OCA praised St. Andrew's Rus. Cath. parish in El Segundo and indicated his wishes that some of his parishes would reach that level of "liturgy and orthopraxis". The OCA, like some Catholic churches, certainly has its own serious and current crises to deal with which has recently impacted parish life in several places.

I would also add Patriarch Maximos IV Saigh and Patriarch Josyp of blessed memory to the above list of those who indeed contributed positively to the life of the Church.
FDD

Just one correction here - it is rare for an OCA church to do Matins on a Sunday morning. It happens here and there, but it's the exception, not the norm. It would be no different when a bishop visits.

The vesting is normally done, but sometimes with the older bishops, they may vest in the altar, because it is a a bit too taxing for them, and they take much more time to vest - it's completely understandable. We have several older bishops on our Holy Synod. Just an FYI there.

However, Saturday night Vespers are largely the norm in OCA parishes throughout North America, again, whether the bishop is visiting or not.

Some parishes do have Saturday evening vigil, where Vespers and Matins are combined. That number is growing, and there are sundry variations on the particular order that they follow.

Just wanted to offer that observation.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St Nicholas Church (OCA)
McKees Rocks, PA