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JohnS,

You may have hit the nail on the head by indicating your local as "Fourth Rome". Perhaps I should change my location.

Re: The Sobor. I excitedly clicked on the link expecting to find an Eastern Catholic Sobor. Sigh... Well, perhaps they will invite us. We could see what one looks like.

CDL

Christ is Risen!

Great posts! All of you are echoing the recurrent theme of the Byzantine Evangelization Movement
(BEMA.)

The journey of the Eastern Catholic Churches (and the Orthodox as well but more so today the Eastern Catholics) is a journey vertically into our authentic selves. Our journey is NOT in looking horizontally at the latest trend or cliche from the secular world or from other Rites or denominations. This is not to say that we cannot learn valueable things from the authentic riches of other Rites. Our journey vertically is about rediscovering old things but seeing them in a new way. There are riches of the Eastern Churches that have perennial value. They are forever new. Our riches are good for all times. They have an inner dynamism that can speak to every age. We just have to unleash them.

It has certainly been my experience that the more faithful we are to who we REALLY are the more we are blessed. The Eastern Catholic Churches must become a part of the "New Evangelization" which means re-evangelizing the batpized UNbelievers.

This is my theme and I will never stop repeating it:

The Eastern Catholic Churches are standing in Judgement Day and being asked, "What are you doing and why are you doing it?" The only hope for the Eastern Catholic Churches is radical renewal. The Eastern Catholic Churches must be "razed to the ground" (even physically in many cases) and rebuilt on every level according to their authentic selves. Now,calm down! Don't get all indignant: "Razing to the ground" is simply the Paschal Mystery, the seed falling to the ground and dying so that it can become a grand tree again. Essentially this all about building a "Liturgical culture," a Liturgical ethos to life. This is why I am such a propoenent of the Theology of the Body--it is a liturgical ethos.
If monasticism is the heart of the Eastern Church, Liturgy is our soul, our strength. Then why not go with our strength and build an entire liturgical culture?

We must implode in order to explode again. (In fact implosion is happening anyway by default through lack of vision,authenticity and initiative. Why not "implode" as part of a plan that will help us exploe again instead of just simply die?)

Again, I apply a principle to the Eastern Catholic Churches articulated by G. K.Chersteron:
If we love something for a reason (such as our Church)we will kill that thing (our Church) trying to preserve the reasons. But if we just simply love something we will be free enough to dismantle it and allow it to rediscover its true self.

So,as someone who is part of the Byzantine Evangelization movement my question to Eastern Catholics, be they clergy or laity is:
Do you love our Church enough to "raze it to the ground" and rebuild it? Or do we love it for all of our individual reasons and therefore we will fight to hang on to those reasons even if it is killing our "beloved" Church?

--Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB.,MA.

Hi,

And are we sure that the more relaxed position the Orthodox Church has regarding issues like divorce, contraception and abortion has nothing to do with the difference between the two parishes?

Last time I checked, Christianity was not a popularity contest and we will not be judged by numbers.

Shalom,
Memo

You're right. It isn't a popularity contest.

But if the Eastern Catholic Churches are loosing members to the Orthodox it behooves them to understand why.

If a weakened, watered down or simplified liturgy is a reason then it should be noted.

If a weakened observance of venerable tradition is a reason then it should be noted.

If parish closings due to a lack of Eastern Rite priests (perhaps partially due to denying the East their venerable tradition of ordaining married men) is a reason then it should be noted.

The same for any of the other myriad possibilities. For you can only preach to and teach those who are in attendance.

What good does it do to preach to an empty room?

If there are reasons for our dwindling parishes that can be addressed without compromising on matters of faith and morals then is it not in the interest of the Body of Christ to address them?

There's really nothing like a simple direct slap in the face to let you know where you stand with people. Do you have any idea how insulting something like that is to Orthodox Christians?

All of these issues have been discussed ad nauseam, there's no need to go over them again. The idea in particular that Orthodoxy has a more "relaxed" position on abortion I find to be simply absurd.

I'm not one for dramatics, but good bye all. I enjoyed my time here.

Andrew

Indeed He is Risen!

I agree completely. Ultimately, I think it all boils down to love - love of Christ, of the ecclesia (an assembly gathered for the Eucharist), of our Eastern spiritual traditions, and of our neighbor. Does our church inspire love of God and each other through our worship and common life?

I think the suffering that the OT prophets had with regard to Israel's unfaithfulness to the covenant is a pattern for any age. It was not the suffering of a frustrated functionary, but the suffering of the lover. To my mind, the Spirit is speaking prophetically to our churches to change and transform. Do we have the courage to listen?

Gordo

Andrew,

I hope and pray that you do not really leave us. Your perspective, and that of all of the Orthodox who post here, is important to the board at large and has been interesting and educational for me, personally.

It would be a tremendous loss to the community if you were to leave over something like this.

Peace,

Carole

I agree with you on this, Andrew. That statement is patently absurd and insulting. Certainly we would differ on the morality of the use of contraception, but to say that is the reason for a growing Orthodox parish life is ridiculous.

And the last time I checked, Memo, the Orthodox had the same position we Catholics do on abortion. I think an apology is in order here...

Gordo

PS: Please rethink your idea of leaving. I have valued your perspectives, even if we did not always agree.

The remark on contraception/divorce/abortion was uncalled for and that the OCA or any other Orthodox jurisdiction is growing because of these issues is absurd.

Fidelity to the Gospel and received tradition are far more of a draw to Orthodoxy for me. My apologies Andrew and all other Orthodox on here.

John K.

I have said this many times before here on the Forum, but will say it again.

In the St. Nicholas Eparchy of Chicago, we had a yearly Eparchial Conference that rotated to different cities, where it was usually hosted by one of the larger parishes in the Eparchy.

At these Conferences, it would be the only time in one year where delegates representing almost every parish, the clergy, and bishop would be together to listen to talks on various themes ranging from Theosis to Stewardship to Parish Leadership to Congregational Singing. But then they stopped....

Now this is similar to the idea of a Sobor, but these Sobors that our Orthodox brethren are holding are legislative bodies. I am not suggesting, nor would our bishops go for it, that a Sobor that would/could/should be held be a legislative body, but rather as a forum for thorough discussion and action in regards to improving the situation we find ourselves in.

It was suggested earlier that we hold one for all Eastern Catholics, but I say, at this time, that isn't a good idea.

At our last Eparchial Conference, things basically ended in a shouting match about language and people walked out, so at least in the UGCC-Diaspora, we have our nationalistic issues to iron out first before our people would be willing to participate in a pan Eastern Catholic Sobor.

Turning to the post of Fr. Soroka, thank you; I stand corrected. I haven't been on the OCA website in a while, so I got my details wrong. But the fact that you see, as Fr. Loya put it, a solid "Liturgical culture" is something that should be aspired to by all jurisdictions-- Orthodox and Eastern Catholic.

Fr. Loya,

You couldn't have said it any better. Bravo for all the work you are doing. Building a Liturgical Culture, or ethos, is exactly what is needed.

Now to others,

I didn't intend to make my last post one just for condeming our bishops and dreaming for idealistic ones. There have been great bishops in the past, and all bring something postivie to the table.

However..... I don't know if they maybe see the overall decline because they aren't physically in a parish level where such "vertical journey" downward is taking place. Some honestly seem pretty out of touch.

Carole had it right in saying what should be noted. That is why this thread is very pertinent because before we try and fix everything into an ideal Brampton or Homer Glen parish, we need to expose what are the problems, so they may be dealt with. But every parish that is growing in membership and is becomming an active Liturgical parish should be evaluated immediately and then shown as an example to other parish on what not ought, but needs to be done.

We are certainly fighting an upstream battle against a pretty fast clock. Would a Sobor solve all the problems? No, but it would be a start for discussion, solutions, and action.

We are on a "vertical journey" that can really go either way. I think at this point what we are doing here is good. Discussion is always needed, and this Forum does bring out the more involved parishioners or our respective home churches. But from here something needs to be done.

I beg the clergy who read and lurk here to bring this up with your bishop. I beg the laity who read and lurk here to bring this up with your pastor. Action is needed now so that we may have something later.

-uc

XPUCTOC BOCKPECE!


I have been away for almost 2 years, but I'm back.

In regards to Ukr.Cath.'s comments.

Ufortunately, that generation of priests and bishops had no choice but get "brainwashed" in Latinizations. For example, an older priest I know was in the Seminary in the US in the 60's. He is not Ukrainian but loved our Orthodox faith so he joined the UGCC. He told me a story about how he had to sneak in literature he purchased from ST. Vlad's press to learn the "Eastern side of things". If someone was caught with this literature, it was confiscated.

The UGCC bishops in the US, at least in Chicago, try to abide by the RC Cardinal's principles. (For those of you who know about the situations this past year in Chicago, you know what I am talking about) Anyway, this bishop does not meet with the area's orthodox at all (he was even invited to an enthronement of a new Uki bishop for the UOC, two blocks away, and did not show up or even did not leave a greeting for someone to read) He prefers to colaborate with the Cardinal. No problem with that, but if the UGCC is really trying to return to its roots to the KYIVAN tradition and wants a united Church again, this wont go.

That is why a sobor for de-latinization will not be possible. Bishop Robert Moskal is the most Eastern in the US (his cousin is emeritus Metropolitan Theodocius of the OCA, by the way), but one bishop won't solve the problem. We just need to educate the people ourselves and hope the younger generation understands the beauty of our orthodox tradition, and they do, its a matter of time before they take over the reigns in the US.

Voistinu Voskres!

Welcome back.

I think the Eparch of Chicago is perhaps wise for becomming more involved with local Cardinal in Chicago. In fact, this same Cardinal visited Ukraine last year, along with our Seminary and University in L'viv. This is all very postive, because the average Roman Catholic doesn't know much if anything about their Eastern brothers. So with the Eparch of Chicago being seen more with the Cardinal may bring more focus and education to the Roman Catholics by showing them, hey, there is another Catholic diocese here, with a cathedral and some parishes in the Chicago area.

But it is unfortunate that the Eparch of Chicago wasn't at the consecration of the new Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop. I know the OCA Archbishop was there.

Archbishop Vsevolod has done and is doing much for reunification and better understanding of both our Churches. Look-- he even goes to all the Orientale Lumen Conferences. How often do any of our UGCC bishops go? Once? Twice? So yeah, in respect to the Orthodox situation, perhaps the Eparch of Chicago is lacking.

In regards to a Sobor, I don't know if focusing solely on a de-latinization process would be the best approach. Surely that would be the ultimate goal-- realizing and living our Eastern Traditions. We are at a point where everyhting needs to be brought on the table. However, I don't know if Bishop Moskal can do this alone. Perhaps for his own Eparchy yes, but the problem is in the whole Metropolia here in the States, not just one or two eparchies.

A Sobor would need to include all Hierarchs, retired and active:
Metropolitans Stefan, Steven; Bishops Basil, Paul, Robert, Richard, Ivan, Innocent, and Michael.

But you brought up a good point in regards to education. That is what it all comes down to. Education will de-latinize, invigorate, rebuild, and evangelize. If the people don't know what we have, for lack of a better word, potentially, then how can we expect change?

Now I understand that sometimes the Eparch of Chicago is hard to get a hold of, so if you feel there are needs for change, or if you want to present some ideas on behalf of the Bratstvo or youth at your parish, then write the Metropolitan if you can't get a hold of the Eparch 2 blocks down the street. I understand. I've been there, done that.

One last comment.

I agree. But in only a handful of parishes? Sts. V&O for sure, maybe Immaculate Conception in Detroit, but not even St. Joe's in Chicago or Nativity in LA.

We-- you and I, and others, as young people need to act now so there are young people to take over the reigns in a few years. In a handful of parishes, maybe. But our whole Eparchy? The Archeparchy? The Diaspora?

I'm sending you a PM, so check your inbox.

Z kaliforniaskym pryvitom,
-uc

Dear Andrew you said:

I say:

You're a little too sensitive. Censorship of one's viewpoint is never a good idea. Better than that, is to use what they say as an opportunity for a dialogue.

As far as I can tell, the reason that the Orthodox Churches are growing, is because of the Protestant converts. When someone has grown up without the concept of a Pope, it is hard to accept a figure who is adored by his followers. It appears alien to our 'democratic' principles and gives the illusion of an autocrat.

Now I've stated this before, because it was the one problem that I myself had with the RCC. Somehow the adoration that is projected towards the Pope by the people, is alien to our democratic culture. I'm over that loophole, but how many Protestants are?

Then again, most Protestant converts want a more traditional Church. Basically they have become fed up with their own. They see that the Latin Church has changed it's Mass, etc., and they can't help but associate the Latin Church with the Byzantine Rite Catholics because they are both under Rome.

Then there are the other converts who have experimented with Eastern religions such as Buddhism, Zen, Hinduism, etc. The Orthodox Church, being more culturally Eastern, would automatically attract them.

Now when someone says that the Orthodox are more liberal in their doctrines, (such as birth control and divorce), they are coming from their RCC experiences. It is the Catholics that will switch to an Orthodox jurisdiction for those very reasons.

So Andrew, don't get so upset because one can only see something from their own experiences. As for abortion, the Orthodox are not lenient towards it, and never will be. Rather individual priests will turn away from emphasizing the evil because they know that their cradle Orthodox are not truly devout, and are only social Orthodox...not to mention the society we live in and the pain they come in contact with when teen age pregnancies occur.

These issues are never black or white, and compassion must go hand in hand with Church doctrine.

So I say ha, when anyone wants to know what the Orthodox Church really believes.Just let them go to a monastery and ask the monks. Boy will they get a slap in the face. It's probably something like not partaking of the Eucharist for three years, and who knows what else.

Zenovia

Remind me to stay away from an Orthodox Monastery then 'cause I like receiving Communion!!!