www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Divine Liturgy This Morning

Good afternoon everyone,


After a much needed break from this Forum I have returned to share with you my experience this morning at a Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy (from a Roman Catholic's perspective).

As I sat in the pew awaiting the start of the liturgy, I took the opportunity to look around and enjoy the iconography.

I noticed that there were Stations (of the Cross) hanging on the wall. I thought this was curious as I had once read that Stations on the wall were considered "Latinizations." In any case, the Stations at this church were rendered beautifully in iconic form.

The Liturgy itself was held in English and it was really easy to follow with the text provided.

Now, I attended the DL in the Byzantine Catholic Church a few years back and for whatever reason that text was near impossible to follow.

Can any of you knowledgable people please explain the differences (if any) between the English version of the Ukrainian Liturgy of S. John Chrysostom and the English version of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Liturgy of S. John Chrysostom?

If they are identical or nearly so, then I wonder and perhaps many others have wondered as well; could there ever be a unified Byzantine Rite in America?

Anyway, for a Catholic Church, the people were generally friendly... and I say this as someone with experience who has visited nearly all the parishes in my archdiocese as well as all Eastern Catholic and even the Traditionalist Catholic parishes in my area. :p

I look forward to hearing from you.

ProCatholico

Welcome back!

Alice

Not knowing which English translations you were attempting to use, I can't comment on them. But I can remark that the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church and the Byzantine-Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Church have exactly the same official texts in Church-Slavonic; the insistence on using different texts in English seems a bit odd.

Twenty-five years or so ago, the Holy See had the idea of attempting to bring some order out of the chaos and sent Father John Long (Memory Eternal) to the US in an effort to coordinate the production of an English translation of the Divine Liturgy and related texts which all the Greek-Catholics in the US could use. Without exception, each jurisdiction responded that "others are at liberty to use our translation, but we are not going to use anyone else's translation!".

The 1996 Instruction on Liturgy also urges various jurisdictions in the same territory using the same language to have a common translation. Dream on.

This is, of course, sheer madness. It would be fairly easy to arrive at a common text on a basis of scientific accuracy, and then invite the several jurisdictions to make changes to that common text on the basis of the needs of whatever liturgical chant is in use, and of whatever particular customs that jurisdiction maintains. But again, that would require a degree of cooperation which has never been forthcoming. Each to his own sandbox, I guess.

Fr. Serge

Do not equate the language(s) of the Liturgy with nationalities, i.e. Ruthenian vs Ukrainian. The Ruthenians aka Rusyns will not identify themselves as or with Ukrainians while the Ukrainians will not identify themselves as Rusyns. In Europe the boundaries of culture and ethnicity are stronger than the boundaries of the churches. It all goes back to the Austro-Hungarian and Russian Empires. As for a unified "rite" perhaps the OCA has had the most success with this.

Alice,


You are truly a gem on this Forum

Thank you for the welcome back, you make me feel so at home here.


ProCatholico

For some clarity, let me restate my questions.


1. Are there any differences between the US (English) versions of both the Ukrainian DL and the Ruthenian DL?

2. Could there ever be a REALISTIC possibility of the OCA jurisdictional format being adopted among the distinct Byzantine Catholic communities here in America? In other words, a unified jurisdiction?

Anyway, thank you,

ProCatholico

love the ukr. liturgy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Pro! Welcome back Yes, but minor. There might be some difference in the length of the litanies or how many antiphons are taken.

Otherwise the differences are just in the choice of words, like "graves" vs "tombs".
Not very likely. Roma originally established a single jurisdiction on it's own authority (because these churches were initially under the supervision of Latin bishops, Roma could intervene and remove them, eventually establishing a hierarchy for them). They are separate because these two groups could not get along then.

Now these are two separate Sui Iuris churches (one headquartered in Philadelphia but attached to the Major Metropolitonate of K'yiv and the other headquartered in Pittsburgh) and I doubt that Roma would be comfortable suppressing the jurisdictions (one or the other) in order to affect a merger. I believe the impetus would have to come from the bishops themselves so that Roma does not give the impression of riding roughshod over the eastern Catholics.

Ukrainians in particular are not ready for any kind of separation from the K'yiv church, and for good reason. They had witnessed the near destruction of that church in Europe and are still rejoicing in it's restoration. The connections are very strong although in reality it seems to be the Pope who appoints the Ukrainian bishops in North America. :rolleyes:

I would expect a similar attitude among the Romanians, for the same reason.

Michael