www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Power of the Sign of the Cross

Dear rugratmd,

No one has said crossing oneself from left to right is an error!

The fact is that until the 13th century, Roman Catholics DID cross themselves from right to left and with three fingers. Pope Innocent III (the Pope who met St Francis) actually issued a missive on the correct way for Catholics to cross themselves - and this is how he described it, in terms of three fingers, from right to left (but once only, unlike the East that does it three times).

There is an English rendering of this letter that someone once put up here on the forum - I have a Slavonic translation from an old Greek Catholic prayerbook from the 19th century.

Latin Catholics began imitating their priests when they blessed the people (and to do this they went from left to right, using the whole hand as the hierarchs used the Christogram).

The tradition caught on, but the earlier one was with three fingers (and most likely two fingers, using the Christogram before that) and from right to left.

The reason why Christians went from right to left was that they used the Jesus Prayer when crossing themselves and said, "Son of God" when they went to the right shoulder to indicate that Christ ascended to heaven and sits at the Right Hand of God the Father.

And Pope Benedict did indeed use the whole hand when he blessed at Regensburg Cathedral - that is up to him!

When the Swiss Guard take their vows, they raise their right hand with two fingers upward and so imitate the ancient tradition.

Alex

Alex,

I will quote the part that seemed offensive to me.

Of topic, but not worth posting a new thread...

There is a young woman who attends the Divine Liturgy who is Roman. She brings a 'gesture' from the norvis ordo, where she immatates the priest in opening her hands and holding her arms up. like this" \/

I know she doesn't mean harm, but, why is this done in the NO? and should something be said so as to prevent other visiting RC's from following her lead or should it be left alone?

Here are some old discussions, I have been searching for the post Alex spoke of, but anyway....

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000772;p=1
https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001159#000005
Neil has an excellent resource in here
https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002840;p=2#000020

Sign of the Cross
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13785a.htm

Might relate some...
https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001231

Enough of my 2 cents worth...
Pani Rose

Mary,

The posture is called the "Orans" posture it is actually an ancient posture for praying.

The priest assumes this posture at the altar during the Eucharistic Canon in the TLM and NO.

The Laity are not supposed to mimic this during the Mass, especially during the Our Father. (I don't know which boils my blood more that or the forced hand holding... oh yeah I hate the hand holding!)

As far as I know this posture doesn't belong at the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I could be wrong.

Dear Mary and Dr Eric,

Zenit had an article a while ago on this point:
Dr Eric,
Don't you think boiling blood is a bit unnecessary?

St. Mary of Egypt,

Here are a couple of links that should shed some light on the Orans posture, all is not as Highlander represents it.

Orans Posture [ewtn.com]

Another Look at the Orans Issue [catholicexchange.com]

I have only seen one individual do this at the DL, an apparent visitor, and although no one else was making this gesture, he persisted through the entire Our Father.

But the reason this is so is explained in the above articles. The Our Father used to be a priestly prayer, it was only in the latter years of the Old Mass that the congregation was given permission to say the prayer with the priest. When the Pauline Mass became the norm, the rubrics left this priestly gesture unchanged (from the days when the priest said the prayer for everyone). The GIRM does not tell the congregation to assume this posture for the Our Father!

Highlander, the reason my blood boils is that congregations (Latin ones) are under the impression that this is the posture for prayer that Rome desires when nothing could be further from the truth. This has been intentionally misrepresented by persons as high in the Latin Church as the Bishops of several dioceses in America. And it has now progressed to the point that whenever the priest assumes this gesture, there are some in the congregation who are imitating at all times, not just during the Our Father.

This is not a problem in the DL as yet, but as I said, I saw someone using this posture during the Our Father several weeks ago. My fear is that the bad habits will eventually creep across the Rites.

This is the exact situation at the Divine Liturgy. She persisted in this posture, even though no one else was doing this.

On one occation, there was a group of visiting Roman Catholics, and they followed her lead. To me, this has no place at a Byzintine Divine Liturgy, and would seem to be a latinization.

Maybe I'll wait to see if she notices no one else is doing this, and see if she stops. If not, maybe I'll gently mention it to her.

Even though there is no ill intent on her part, the last thing we need is a NO Divine Liturgy :p

This is NOT a Latinization. It is discouraged in the GIRM. If anything it is something that creeped into the Mass from Evangelical Protestantism OR from poor Catechesis on the part of the Roman Church.

"Maybe I'll wait to see if she notices no one else is doing this, and see if she stops. If not, maybe I'll gently mention it to her. Even though there is no ill intent on her part, the last thing we need is a NO Divine Liturgy"

First, it is up to your priest, not you, to mention it to her if he see fit.

Second, it is an allowable position for pray during the Our Father, not only in the Latin Church, but if you ever attend the DL in a Melkite or Maronite Church you will see the orans used by the laity during the Our Father as well.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Padraig,
I made no representation at all, I merely copied the opinion of Professor McNamara as found on the ZENIT website.
Whereas I can relate to feelings of distaste for liturgical behaviour that appears wrong or bizarre, I think that being angry with someone (who may be unaware of the issues) is not the most appropriate reaction. That is all.

Beannachd leat!

Point well taken. Thank you.

Now, let's return to the original topic. Sorry for changing the subject as my original intent was to uplift everyone with a postive article on the power of the Sign of the Cross.

Peace,
Mary