www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Can we pray someone out of hell?!

I have been Orthodox 4 years and have never heard this mentioned before. A friend of mine who often visits St. Anthony's G.O. Monastery in Florence, AZ told me this story related by Elder Ephraim: That the elder had a vision of his father in hell, and began to pray for him. At first he saw his father in extreme torment. Later after many prayers he saw his father merely "locked in a cell." Finally after saying more prayers the elder had a vision of his father in heaven.

Pastors, theologians, help me out! Is this an actual teaching of Orthodoxy? If it is then I certainly won't deny it, as I believe the Church is led by the Spirit and her teachings are all true.

But I see a problem with this. IF we can pray the damned out of hell, why can't I just sluff off my own spiritual journey in hopes that I too will be delivered in this way?
2. If this is true then could not all of the damned be released from hell by prayers?

Elder Ephraim, I am told, is a truly holy man who has clairvoyant gifts and has reached a high spiritual state. I do not mean to question him, but I have never heard this teaching before.

Personally, I think that the 'hell' was more of a state of purgatory. That is why we pray for the dead. Just don't mention that word to any Orthodox, but it makes perfect sense to me.

You may want to visit our recent discussions on Purgatory.

God bless,
Alice

Alice is right on. The orthodox Fathers, in accordance with Scripture, teach that the hell of the damned is eternal. Consequently, damned souls cannot be released by prayer (or any other means).

On the other hand, souls can be delivered from the flames of purgation by the prayers of the living. This state is what westerners call Purgatory.

LatinTrad

Come to think of it another thing comes to mind. In the life of Bl. Euphemia of Serbia, she mentions having prayed for the soul of a sister who "did not find mercy with the Lord." That would not mean purgatory, but hell. Like Elder E she prayed for the nun's soul until she saw a vision of her in heaven.

What does your pastor say about this?

My opinion, for what it's worth...is that the elder's father was in purgatory or whatever you wish to call the purifying state after death...and by his prayers, he gave him the comfort and conpanionship and help that was needed to bring him completely into the Light of God's grace. Because in the Gospel, Our Lord says (when speaking about Lazarus): "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." (Luke 16, vs. 26) But THE most important thing to be learned from this would seem to be: that prayers for the departed are of GREAT value, thus the words from the Bood of Maccabees: "It is a good and profitable thing to pray for the dead."

May the Lord have mercy upon all of those who have died in faith and with the hope of Resurrection!

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory

There is no doubt elder Ephraim has had an impact on monasticism in North America. I am not sure however that all agree on his spiritual direction of lay folks. You should ask around, I think you would get differing opinions.

What you relate is a private revelation regarding which the Church, AFAIK, takes no position.

One could ask our RC brothers and sisters whether certain promises made in private revelations such as the ones regarding the wearing of the Brown Scapular (a recent topic) would result in the same thing you posit. The "Sabbatine privilege" could be exaggerated to say "I'll do as I please as long as I am careful to wear (or maybe even just die with it on) the Brown Scapular." Obviously that is not consonant with the Faith. I think to say you can pray someone out hell is similarly not consonant with the Faith.

I would say there are various options here, the foremost being the advice of your pastor/spritual father, after that:
1. It was a private revelation to the seer with no meaning to us.
2. It reveals the need to pray for the dead in a way that the seer (and perhaps we) could understand. Like on Mt. Tabor, He revealed himself to His disciples inasmuch as they could bear.

T

A little Orthodox humor: There were 2 charwomen scrubbing cobblestones in Red Square outside Lenin's Tomb. One said to the other, "Do you think Lenin is in heaven?" The other replied, "Of course he is! His mother was Orthodox!"

Tony, But remember always that there are requirements that go WITH the Sabbatine Privilege:

The conditions for the gaining of the privilege are of such a kind as justify a special trust in the assistance of Mary. It is especially required of all who wish to share in the privilege that they faithfully preserve their chastity (according to their state in life), and recite devoutly each day the Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin. However, all those who are bound to read their Breviary, fulfil the obligation of reciting the Little Hours by reading their Office. Persons who cannot read must (instead of reciting the Little Hours) observe all the fasts prescribed by the Church as they are kept in their home diocese or place of residence, and must in addition abstain from flesh meat on all Wednesdays and Saturdays of the year, except when Christmas falls on one of these days. The obligation to read the Little Hours and to abstain from flesh meat on Wednesday and Saturday. In other words, those who would wish to claim this privilege must lead a HOLY LIFE (keeping ALL the commandments of God and the Church) and fulfill the usual conditions for Confession and Holy Communion. Not such an easy task this!

In Mary's service,
+Fr. Gregory

Amen to what Fr. Gregory wrote.

The Elder whom the O.P referred to is not the only one. There have always been a few people, now and in the past, who have seen the souls being purified in the next world, and who have been asked to pray for them, and who have seen the progress of those souls as a result of prayer.

I�m not Orthodox, but maybe these words will help the O.P.

Hell is forever. So too is Heaven.

However, there is a temporary state of purification for those who are righteous but not yet pure enough for Heaven. The Roman Catholic Church calls that �Purgatory,� and Roman Catholics tend to think of it as a state of purification and punishment. The Orthodox Church does not (to the best of my knowledge) have any formal name for it. However (to the best of my knowledge), the Orthodox tend to think of it more as state of purification than punishment. And so on: East and West of the Church often have different understandings of the same things. Nevertheless, both East and West have the same basic idea. There is a temporary state of purification for souls who are righteousness enough (by God�s grace) to escape Hell but who are not yet pure enough to enter Heaven.

Also, both East and West teach that the living can help the souls who are being purified in the next world.

I don�t know the specifics of what the Orthodox Church teaches about praying for the dead, so I won�t address it here. However, I know that Orthodox Christians do pray for the dead.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that people can help souls who are being purified (including those in Purgatory) by praying for them, by doing penance, by almsgiving and by offering the Mass / the Divine Liturgy for them. The good that is done is not by our efforts by the grace of God acting in us and through us.

In the Roman Catholic Church, there are also indulgences. These can only be applied to oneself or to souls in Purgatory. Basically, indulgences are prayers and good works that the Church blesses, by its binding and losing authority, to be especially helpful for souls: here and hereafter.

The Roman Catholic Church has greatly revised its understanding of indulgences since the Second Vatican council. The old idea of prayers, etc., being the equivalent of days of penance has been abolished. Instead, there is simply trust in the grace of Jesus, which we are open to receiving either partially (a "partial indulgence") or a totally (a "plenary indulgence"). In other words, Jesus is the plenary indulgence; and if we are totally open to Him, we are totally open to His forgiveness and healing and love. And if we are only partially open to Him, by being partially attached to sin, we are only partially open to His gifts of mercy and of love. Either way, we can receive His mercy and love for ourselves, and we can ask Him to apply His mercy and love to those who have already passed on.

The indulgences themselves have been greatly revised too. There are still some prayers which are formally "indulgenced." However, the main emphasis now are four general approaches to being open to Jesus and His mercy: prayer, penance, almsgiving and witnessing to the Faith. These are officially called "four general grants" of indulgences. If a person does anything within those categories in a moral way and with genuine faith, there is greater unity with Jesus thereby. And that greater unity, in turn, opens the soul to more of Jesus and His grace: for ourselves and (if we ask) for those who are already in the world to come.

For more information on the Roman Catholic view of Purgatory and indulgences, see
The Catholic Catechism, section 1030-1032 at http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm;
also see
http://www.integrity.com/homes/mgross/indulg.html, and http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/APINDULG.HTM .

In sum, It is the Eucharist that is medicine for the sick soul. Jesus is the Eucharist, through the Holy Spirit, from and unto the Father. When we live more in union with the Trinity, by living more Eucharisticly, by living more truly the Gospel, we give God more room to dwell within us and to act through us for our good and for the good of the neighbor: here and hereafter. In living the Gospel, all of life becomes an epiclesis. Praying for those in the world to come is another example --and opportunity-- of that.

Hope this helped.

--John

I don't claim to have the fulness of truth personally, or to know the complete answer to the original question.

However, I would suggest two points to ponder. 1) WE cannot pray someone out of hell - but I am unaware of any scriptural injunction to avoid praying for the dead, and the Church certainly does that. 2) The mercy of God is infinite, but we may not dictate it. God Himself knows how and upon whom to have mercy. So our prayer should always be characterized by humility and self-abasement.

(I did not claim that I myself practice these virtues anywhere nearly as often as I should! But so much the worse for me.)

Incognitus

This relates well with the topic in Town Hall: Akathist for the repose of those who have fallen asleep.
That akathist mentions the skull of a deceased heathen addressing St Macarius and advising him that his prayers aid even those in hell.

Origen taught that the damned, after a long period of purification, would eventually enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He based his belief on Acts 3:21. Among those who subscribed to this doctrine was St Gregory of Nyssa.

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't there going to be a judgement and a second death. Could it be that those people were in a 'temporary' hell?

I also recall in the prophetic vision of Saint John Kronstadt, that when Saint Seraphim showed him the piles of names of prayers for the dead outside the churches, Saint John asked, "but who will pray for them". Saint Seraphim answered, the angels will.

Also, didn't Saint Therese ask that she not go to heaven, because she wanted to remain in a 'state' (for want of a better word), where she can be in a position to do good in this world?

As for the Eucharist, and the sacraments, then what about the devout Evangelicals, especially some elderly black women, who even Father Groechel, (definitely a saint) said puts his RCC women to shame.

I think everything falls within our Lord's wisdom. He leans towards us and guides us in whichever way we are able to proceed towards Him.

Zenovia

Hi Zenovia,

I certainly agree with your last statement. St. Peter observed the same thing when he spoke with Cornelius. "In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears Him and acts uprightly is acceptable to Him." (Acts: 10, 34-35) I did not mean to imply in my previous post that people who don't have the Eucharist or even the Gospel are lost to God, and I apologize if I gave that impression.

However, I think Christ comes to complete, correct and perfect all truths, for He is Truth. Hence, St. Peter did not stop with the above quote when he spoke with Cornelius. Rather, he continued by sharing the Gospel. In other words, I don't think non-Catholics, non-Orthodox, or non-Christians are lost; but they are instead drawn by Christ to the fullness of Himself by whatever righteous means the Father wills and the Holy Spirit directs.

As for the rest of your post, I respect your knowledge about the views of some of the saints and sages regarding the eternity of hell. Yet, I must defer to the views of Jesus Christ on this matter. Jesus Christ clearly stated in several places in the Gospel that hell is forever, and so too is eternal life. (For example, Matthew 25:46) He who gives us life and freedom also gives us the free will to accept these or to reject these, forever.

Finally, however, I see in the Gospel that Christ does not want anyone to go to hell; rather, He wants all to have eternal life. (John: 3,17) Thus, indeed, is the Paschal mystery crowning the mystery of His life. From that, and from the tradition and the witness of the saints, it seems that God is most eager to extend every possible mercy and grace to us: to save us from hell, to sanctify us in this life, and to purify us (if necessary) in the next life, for the eternity of Life with Him. Hence, by His most gracious love, all becomes an epiclesis when we let Him dwell within us and through us.

--John