www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Questions about Mary in Byzantine prayer

I am a Roman Catholic currently learning about the Byzantine traditions. As a Roman Catholic, I have no reservations whatsoever about praying to the saints and venerating Mary.

I am a bit confused, however, by a number of Byzantine prayers that *seem* to suggest that Mary is a savior (but I trust that there is a better explanation), for example:

EVENING PRAYER:
"Open unto us the doors of mercy, O blessed Mother of God, that we, who place our trust in you, may not perish; but that through you we be delivered from misfortune. For you are the salvation of all Christians...We are yours, O Mother of God. Since you have delivered us from all tribulations we give thanks to you by dedicating our songs of victory to you, O Saving Champion."

DAILY OFFICE:
"Most holy Mother of God, save us."

Yes, it cannot be understated that Mary cooperated with God's plan for salvation. However, the Evening Prayer in particular uses such strong language in this regard. Are we speaking of "saving" with som sort of lower-case "s"?

Please help. (I am not criticizing; I want to understand; I find Byzantine prayers in general very expressive and beautiful.)

Thank you.

Marc

Hi Marc,

There are many who can answer much better than I, but, the East looks at everything with such mystery:

EVENING PRAYER:
"Open unto us the doors of mercy, O blessed Mother of God, that we, who place our trust in you, may not perish; but that through you we be delivered from misfortune. For you are the salvation of all Christians...We are yours, O Mother of God. Since you have delivered us from all tribulations we give thanks to you by dedicating our songs of victory to you, O Saving Champion."

The door of mercy we ask her to open up for us is her interceding with her Son Jesus. We in the East see everything with such mystery sometimes it is just hard to explain with words. The salvation of all Christians comes from her bring forth Christ. Another name she has in the Eastern Church is Platetari,(not certain of spelling), but it means she who is more spacious than the heavens. Mary contained the uncontainable, God becoming Man, the One who could not be contained.

OH my I am rambling it is really late, hope this all helps a little.

IN fact I noticed this on ebay of all places, I think it explains it pretty good.

Troparion
Since thou art a well-spring of tenderness, O Theotokos, make us worthy of compassion; Look upon a sinful people; Manifest thy power as ever, for hoping on thee we cry aloud unto thee: Hail! As once did Gabriel, chief Captain of the Bodiless Powers.

Inexhaustible (a.)
Incapable of being exhausted emptied or used up; unfailing; not to be wasted or spent; as inexhaustible stores of provisions; an inexhaustible stock of elegant words.

In the Icon The Inexhaustible Cup (bleow at ebay link the only place i cound find an icon of it..so i used their words too)

Mary is at the Altar, where no woman can serve, offering Christ in the Eucharist. Her hands are upraised and she is looking at us, calling us home to Eucharistic fellowship in the Body of Christ.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13768&item=3293707487&tc=photo

You may be supprised to find that many of the litanys from the West come from the East, you may recoginze some of it for the Akathist
http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/Akathist.htm

Pani Rose

Dear Marc,

It does strike me as interesting that an RC whose Church often talks about declaring the Most Holy Virgin Mary as "Co-Redemptrix" would find these prayers "interesting?"

The Byzantine Orthodox and EC Churches are the only ones who address the Mother of God and say "Save us!"

This prayer actually comes to us from the Most Holy Mother of God herself, having revealed it to the Apostles.

After her Dormition and being taken to heaven, the Apostles were gathered for supper together.

The Mother of God then appeared to them and told them that she would always respond to them in their necessities - and that they should invoke her this way: "Most Holy Theotokos save us!"

The word translated for "save" can also mean "intercede for us" or "help us."

In fact, the prayer to the Most Holy Virgin Mary at Compline begins with all three forms.

We ask her to save us by her intercessions which are so powerful with Her Son, as we know from the Wedding at Cana in Galilee.

The Most Holy Virgin Mary has the power, as we see from that example, to alter Her Son's very plans . . .

She saves us by Her Mantle of Protection.

In fact, your Western tradition also has the ancient prayer "We fly to Your Patronage" which is also the basis of the other prayer you cite as well.

Most Holy Mother of God, save us!!

Alex

Actually Alex, this isn't quite true. There is a jaculatoria (ejaculation, or short prayer) in spanish that goes:

Dulce corazon de Maria, salvadlo!

which means:

Sweet Heart of Mary, save him!.

When my grandfather died and we made his novena we repeated this over and over at the end of each day's prayer. And you are right about "We fly to thy patronage" which includes the plea to "free us from all dangers".

My guess is that there might be more of this salvific language among Western devotion to Mary than we might realize. Maybe we're just not as aware of it as in the East.

Dear Manuel,

But is this invocation something that would be considered liturgical?

It is true that the word "save" or "salvation" is to be readily found in popular Western invocations/ejaculations.

A favourite with me is "Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation!"

The invocation, "Most Holy Mother of God, save us!" is used very, very frequently in daily liturgical prayer in the Byzantine Churches - as a refrain for Canons to the Mother of God and at other times.

I wanted to ask you what the regulations of the Latin Rite are concerning prayer to saints - I once heard that, at the Altar, only prayer to God through Christ may be said - is this true?

Alex

Dear Alex
You know, this occured to me after I had posted and I realize this is what you mean. I would say no because a novena per se is a private devotion. However, the way we observed it was elaborate enough that it might have been considered para-liturgical.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to compare the daily liturgical prayer in the Byzantine Churches to that of the Latin Chuch. However, sometimes I use a short form of the Liturgy of the Hours that was published in Mexico and at least a couple of the Marian antiphones for Compline implore the Blessed Virgin to free us. Maybe the complete Liturgy of the Hours, pre- or post-Vatican II, invokes her this way more frequently? I don't know.

As you wrote it is interesting that that some if this language is 'interesting' to a Roman Catholic. I think that's the main point of my post above. There might be more of this type of 'save us' language in the Latin tradition, liturgical or not, than we are aware of today. I don't think a movement in favor of declaring Mary as Co-Redemptrix would arise without a fairly strong basis or development from before.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'regulations in the Latin Rite concerning prayers to the saints'. I assume they're much the same as in the Byzantine Rite, i.e. they intercede for us before God, etc.

It's my understanding is that the Eastern Divine Liturgies invoke Our Lady and the saints more than in the Western Mass.

Even so I can think of a number of times they are invoked during Mass: during the Eucharistic Prayers especially the Roman Canon, during the 'Confiteor' and even more in the older form (Our Lady, Sts. Michael, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul) used in the Tridentine Mass, the collects and the final blessing often invoke the saint of the day. I think they can also be invoked during the 'prayers of the faithfull', and we are asked to join the angels in praising God at the 'Sanctus'. Is this what you mean by 'at the Altar'?

Slava Isusu Christu!

I learn so much here! Thank you all for sharing.

Marc,

I was taught the reason we venerate Our Lady so deeply is due to her direct relationship to the Holy Trinity.

Mary is the daughter of the Father.
Mary is the bride of the Holy Spirit.
Mary is the mother of the Son.

She is the Most Pure Godbearer!

She has a relationship unparalleled in our existance.

As Alex stated so eloquently,

"We ask her to save us by her intercessions which are so powerful with Her Son, as we know from the Wedding at Cana in Galilee.
The Most Holy Virgin Mary has the power, as we see from that example, to alter Her Son's very plans."

Michael (a sinner)