www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology marriage in heaven

Dear Reader Rubis,

Earth to Andrew! Earth to Andrew!

What are you talking about and what does this have to do with this thread?

Ten-Four, over and out!

Alex

Dear Alex, I love an animated discussion just like the rest of you. Don't read any emotion into my "!" other than emphasis.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Hopko answered your question. In order for one to take communion, a second even third marriage is tolerated. It is purely a concession to weakness. I admit that it is abused. That doesn't change the theology of the church one bit. The questions of "who" and "what" and "how" then become very much like the Saducees who denied the resurrection.

Even the nature of this "indissoluble bond" is a mystery, and I mean that as "something undetermined"! But we should not deny the bond simply becuase we've created a situation where it doesn't add up! I'm sure that many a jaw will drop in the kingdom. But then it won't matter, because all that will matter is God and being in His presence and worshipping and adoring Him.

This is all very important stuff, especially for those who claim the moniker "Orthodox." I don't think there is really a "controversy" here, unless someone wants to make one. The theology of the church is quite clear on this, Fr. Allen or no Fr. Allen (who had other motivations for writing his ill-conceived book). It's hard to argue with the texts of the marriage service itself.

I think if someone were to sit down, read the marriage service text, as well as a few key passages of scripture on love, all would be quite clear.

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

Good - so I haven't irritated you!

You seem to be the only one here today that I haven't . . .

I'll read the marriage service over - no problem!

For your information, Fr. Meyendorff's book on marriage not only inspired me to love my wife more, but to also look at my ring whenever I cross myself, to commemorate the Holy Crowned Ones Constantine and Helen in our daily prayers, and to look for a copy of that special marriage belt buckle that is used as an illustration on the front cover of his book!

Don't you agree I would make a great Orthodox Christian?

Alex

Less talk, more action!

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

Well, I already have an Orthodox priest in Florida who says he will receive me into Orthodoxy personally.

But ever since that time, I have been prevented by circumstances to get back to Florida . . .

Hmmmm . . .

Alex

By the way, under "food for thought in this topic" just a few disjointed thoughts to think about:

Priestly candidates are only permitted one marriage in Orthodoxy.

The priest is the "minister of the sacrament" (to borrow a Western term) in marriage. (In the West, the couple is the minister of the sacrament. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this goes to the "contractural nature" of marriage in the West. That's why a deacon can celebrate a marriage alone. This is not to say, however, that the blessing of the Church is unecessary in the West - it is necessary. But the idea that the couple is the minister of the sacrament is strong, maybe not completely agreed upon, but it's there.)

The service of second marriage in Orthodoxy is different in nature from a first marriage, the theme being "repentance." Some also do not crown second or third marriages, esepcially of those who were both Orthodox in their first marriage. The crowning is seen as the "epiklesis" (if you will) of the marriage.

Fourth marriages are never blessed in the church. To do so (outside of the church) is to be excommunicated.

Priest Thomas

Dear Alex,

Sorry for the confusion down there on earth.

My post "regarding the damned" was a response to Marshall's post of 2/19/03 at 10:19 AM on this thread.

May I add, that the greatest difficulty with this subject or remarriage comes from the rare practice of the Church having actually issued "divorces" or "dissolutions" to marriages. That's where the theology and practice fail to match well, not in the remarriage itself, which is a condescention to sin.

The Church needs to receive those applying for a second or third marriage on the basis that the marriage is completely kaput/broken/gone/dissolved/divorced INDEPENDENT of any action on the part of the Church. Issuing "dissolutions" or "divorces" does imply ecclesiatical approval. If such would be issued, one could argue that they should only be issued in cases of sexual immorality ("pornea" in Greek) or the death of the spouse.

In Christ.

Dear Reverend Reader Rubis,

Well, that's precisely my point as well!

I'm so happy I've found ONE Orthodox Christian I can agree with!

God bless!

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Interesting topic! I remember a Greek Orthodox priest saying once that eternal marriage is like the love between Christ and the Church, "a never ending honeymoon." From what I have read and heard from Holy Orthodoxy, marriage truly is viewed as an eternal covenant.

I think a lot of Christians (mainly those not Orthodox) view "eternal marriage" as strictly a Mormon teaching. While it is true that the Mormons teach eternal marriage, their understanding of this priceless truth is one of an earthly, temporal type of marital bond. In Holy Orthodoxy it is one of greater love and devotion than this world could ever offer, uniting us together with our "better half" so that we can worship God in the fullness of our beings for eternity.

Mark,

You could buy the book, "Preserve Them O' Lord" by Fr. John Mack. Although, this book is mainly used for people going into marriage, I think it gives a healthy Eastern understanding of Holy Matrimony. I found it really helpful. Also, Fr. Mack attests to the eternal aspect of marriage many times.

Adam

Dear Adam,

As for eternity of marriage, be careful what you wish for . . .

Alex

Alex,

Just what I was thinking. An eternity with your spouse might be heaven for some but hell for others

-Mark

Dear Mark,

Precisely!

(Don't you think some of the Orthodox brothers here take themselves a bit too seriously?)

Thanks be to God for the precious gift of WOMEN!

Alex

Maybe you all don't realize how ORTHODOX that theology actually is! Just like God's love - which is heaven or hell to those who accept or don't accept it. Thank you for making my argument complete!

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

What you say reminds me of the woman who tells her husband that the latest male fashion is the wearing of shirts without buttons.

"Ah, and I've been so fashionable, then, for some years now . . ."

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Could anyone tell me the reason why Fr. Joseph Allen changed his view on eternal marriage? (Leading to his obvious remarriage.)

I found the following quote by Fr. Allen, "The Church begins her responsibility for the whole family phase by binding two Christians through the Sacrament of Marriage, and these ties, the Churches teach us, are not broken, even by death. This is why the Church uses her great power of memory in her Liturgy-to always reunite the family."

The article is at the following, "http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/family/allen_church_family.htm" It says it was written in January 1971.