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Can anyone provide me with a brief description of what exactly this miracle is?

Does it also occur at the Catholic ceremony of the Holy Fire, or soley with the Orthodox?

Is it authentic?

An Orthodox friend of mine claims that this miracle is proof that Orthodoxy, not Catholicism or Protestantism, is the True Faith, since the miracles doesn't happen to the Catholics in the same ceremony in the same location.

How do I refute this?

Miracles are not considered to be "proof" of anything. Even the beast of revelations can perform "miracles" and his demons can make many things seem like a miracle to sway the minds of feable men.

That is by no means to say the miracle of the Holy Fire is a farce, not at all - it is very true and certainly something to consider.

But to answer your question, don't refute him. Become Orthodox and join the Church.

OrthodoxyorDeath:

Please remember that you are on a Byzantine CATHOLIC forum. You are welcome to post here, but you are not welcome to proselytize here any more than a Catholic would be welcome doing so on an Orthodox web site. Please refrain from doing so again.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator

No one answered the question .... What is "Holy Fire"?

Loretta

Dear Loretta,

On Holy Saturday Night, at the Midnight Service, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem enters the tomb of Christ with unlit candles (and obviously no means to light them), and after prayer, emerges with lit candles. This miraculous descent of the "holy fire" is a gift from God, and a sign each year of the power of God. From the 'holy fire' the candles of the congregation are lit, and the faithful take the 'holy fire' home in lamps, and preserve it throughout Pascha.

Our Byzantine ceremony at Paschal Matins is a symbolic partaking in this mystery.

Othodoxy or Death is correct, and it is not a proof of anything, nor a "badge of honor" for any Church.

It does suggest something about God's love for his Church, and for the center of the earth... the tomb of Christ. This life giving tomb is in the center of the holy city of Jerusalem is important for all Christians, for in that city our Savior died, and rose again! From that holy city Christ arose, the Spirit descended, and to it the Lord will return. The 'holy fire' is related to this special relationship between God and the holy city, and God has chosen this place among all places on earth, to see awesome events for our salvation.
It is a humbling gift, rather than a source of pride for anyone or any Church.

Elias

I don't remember the address, but there is a website with RealVideo of the Holy Fire. Blue light, similar to lightning, can be seen everywhere, and no one gets burnt from the fires lit; people stick their faces in the fire and don't get scorched.

anastasios

PS Alex might like to tell the story of what happened when the Armenian patriarch payed off the Muslims one year so that he could beat the Greek Patriarch to the tomb!

Once you read what I have posted below you will realize that the customs and observances you adhere to from Good Fiday to The Ressurection Services comes from your Orthodox past and what happens at Christs tomb every year.

Bob


Here is what transpires:

From a booklet entitled "I Saw The Holy Light' by the Greek Orthodox Monk Theophanis the caretaker of the Holy Tomb.


From 10 O'clock in the morning of Orthodox Holy Saturday until 11 O'clock, a rigorous search for any instrument or device for igniting is made inside the Holy Sepulchre itself. Above this most Holy momument to Orthodoxy hang 43 golden vigil lights which are lit day and night.

13 blong to the Orthodox
13 belong to the Latins
13 belong to the Armenians
04 belong to the Coptic Monophysites

All of these lights form a golden curtain. They are like torchbearing Heavenly Orders suspended over the Tomb of Christ. Inside the Holy Sepulchre, at the last hour, only authorized representatives of the Armenians. the Latins, and the Copts, together with the Orthodox enter the tomb for the purpose to put out the 43 vigil lights. Precautions are taken to so that at no time, either by error or intentionally, a vigil remains lit or that anything suspect is present.
After a complete and thorough search is made in the Holy Sepulchre, a second and third search follows to make sure that neither a person nor anything forbidden, exists in the tomb. Only then do the inspectors come out.
At that time, 11 O'clock, procedures for the sealing of the tomb are ready to begin. The blessed and softened beeswax now will be used to secure two white ribbons in the shape of an "X" over the door of the Holy Sepulchre.
After the wax has been put on the four ends of the ribbons, then the exact center where the ribbons cross, more wax will be deposited. Finally every point is to be stamped by the seal of the Orthodox Patriachate.
After the sealing of the Tomb, a magnificant and majestic procession takes place three times around the Holy Sepulchre. In the lead are the Patriarchal banners, altar boys bearing candles, crosses, and emblems of six winged angels. The Patriarch follows with a host of priests in golden vestments. All around can be heard the chanting of Byzantine hymns with their sacred tones.
At the end of the third time around the Patriarch stands at the entrance of the Holy and Life Giving Sepluchre. Before all of the officials and the pilgrims, the patriarch is searched again by the vigilant attendents. Precisely at 12 O'clock noon on Holy Saturday the ribbons of the entrance are cut and the door is unsealed and opened.
The Patriarch then enters first followed by the Armenian priest, who as an attendent, is there to observe every move the Patriarch makes and then to wait in the outer chamber. The Patriarch then proceeds into the inner Sanctuary to recieve the Holy Light. Suddenly there will be a brilliant light emanating from the tomb and the Patriarch will appear carrying a special bunch of 33 candles.
At times the light doesn't only emanate from the tomb itself but from the dome which looks like static electricity. Many people will be standing there and suddenly their candles will be ignited. For the first five minutes or so, the fire does not burn. I have a video showing people waving their lighted candls thru the hair and beards with out having them ignited,
The crowd is shoulder to shoulder and all pandemonium breaks loose. Its a miracle that no ones clothes catch fire.


[There is a new small booklet available from Light-n-Life Publishing concerning the 'Holy Fire'. It was written in Greek by the GO monk Mitrophanis who was the guardian of the Holy Tomb for many years. This monk escaped from a Moslem concentration camp in Turkey and walked all the way to the Holy Land for the purpose of dedicating his life to the protect of the Holy Places. The story I have related above is from this booklet.]

As far as the claim that it proves the truth of Orthodxy the following incident occured in the 16th century. The split column where the Holy Fire went thru to light the candles of the Orthodox Patriarch is still there.

In the year 1517 A.D., the Arabs occupied Jerusalem, the Armenians took advantage of their presence. They aproached the Moselm governor with gifts of gold, and asked for the privilege to receive the Holy Light. This they asked and this they succeeded. They also implored to him that the Orthodox be forbidden entrance to the Holy Sepulchre for the sacred ritual.
Holy Saturday dawned and the most Holy Church of the Ressurection was closed to all the Orthodox. Even the Patriarch and the clergy were not allowed to enter.
The Patriarch was kneeling at the entrance of the Most Holy Church. He was holding in his hand the bundle of the thirty three candles and praying. Tears streamed down his face as he pleaded to God:
"Lord, You who abhors injustice, heed the prayers of our children. Grant that Your glory may appear through Your miracle and do not deprive Your Holy Light from Your faithful people.'
On that fateful Holy Saturday in 1517, the Divine Light did not visit the Holy Sepulchre where the Armenians were in charge and waiting. Instead before the amazed eyes of clergy and pilgrims, the Holy Light flashing brilliantly, struck the column the Patriarch was standing behind with the sound of a forceful wind. Instantly the stone column was split and blackened near the bottom. And the light appeared and lit the candles of the Patriarch.
The column is still there on the left hand side of the entrance to the Sepulchre.

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Holy Fire of Jerusalem

www.hvidt.com/English/Holy-Fire-UK.htm [hvidt.com]

Religion is dead! God will meet any one in the holy city if they seek him with a sincere heart. God tends to work with peoples understanding, as far having the right day for Easter is concerned-Great things have happened on both dates in the western calendar and eastern. I personally think both dates are not correct, because it was Constantine that mandated the celebration on a certain day. The Jewish calendar is also different from both when Passover is celebrated. But, God will respect the days we choose to worship him. I made the remark religion is dead because people focus too much on the right institution instead of having the right heart. The sacred rites of worship that we have today are a result of communities seeking God with true hearts, however a rite by itself is dead with out sincerity of faith. I would like to point out what scripture teaches: Jn: 4:23:
23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. (DRV) Also, I would like to point out what the late Rev. Dr. Alexander Schmemann of St. Vladimir's Seminary had to say about this scripture Those who focus on the institution are missing the point, but those who use the institution to get closer to God will find him. God will not hold back his spirit from any one who is baptized in the Trinity; neither will he withhold a miracle. Religion is dead

Please forgive me, but are y'all saying that this actually happens now or are these incidents that happened long ago and are only remembered symbolically?

Elias, you said "Our Byzantine ceremony at Paschal Matins is a symbolic partaking in this mystery."

Does this only happen at the "Holy Sepulchre"?

My goodness, but there is so much to learn on this forum!

Loretta

Loretta,

Yest, the miralce does indeed ocur every year at the Basilica of the Resurrection (Holy Sepulchre) during the Orthodox Pascha services.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Dear Friends,

An American medical student visited Jerusalem and stayed for the Paschal services.

He doubted the miracle of the Holy Fire but held his lantern and stood close to the Holy Sepulchre.

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is divided into six Churches including the Greek and Russian Orthodox, the Coptic Orthodox and the Roman Catholic.

In the middle is a Chapel covering the actual Sepulchre of Christ.

Into this the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem enters with two Oriental Orthodox bishops with two candles.

At midnight, he sings the Paschal hymn and the candles light up.

This American student put his ear to the wall to see what he could hear.

He heard the paschal hymn and his lantern lit up by itself!

He wrote about this later in the New England Journal of Medicine and the ROCOR reprinted it for an issue of the "Orthodox Word."

Also, in front of the main doors of the Church is a plaque commemorating a special event.

There is a Muslim minaret in front of the doors and on one Paschal eve a Muslim was looking at the Christians going to Church.

He then saw the Holy Fire dart to and fro all over the Church.

He then began to proclaim Christ loudly, as if to call people to prayer from the minaret.

He lost his footing and fell down, dying before the Doors.

The Orthodox Church in Jerusalem has locally glorified him as a saint, baptized in his own blood.

Alex

But the question still remains:

Why is this miracle only happening in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy?

My Orthodox friends seem to think this is God's way of saying Orthodoxy is the true religion.

Do we Catholics have any miracles that are th equivalent of this( that is, are exclusive to Catholics?)

Also, does anyone have any statistics as to the occurrence of miracles in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism?

It is my understanding that Catholicism has much more, numerically, miracles than Orthodoxy. Evidence for this, I think, is a larger number of canonized Saints, all of which hade miracles documented about them.

Dear Friend,

This is an interesting point you have raised.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have, throughout their separate histories, often tried to do a "one upsmanship" on the score of miracles.

This existed even before the Schism of AD1054. For example, there appeared to have been an ongoing "contest" of sorts to see which Catholic country had the most number of saints.

As the Bollandists later proved, many national saints were actually borrowed and so certain countries "adopted" as their own St Joseph of Arimathea etc.

Miracles were similarly collected by national churches by way of a kind of spiritual "Olympics."

After the Schism, the West and the East would often compare miracles to try and show which side was the "true Church."

The Catholic attitude toward the East for the longest time was that it had no "saints" properly speaking as schismatics are without grace and therefore any miracle stories are just that . . .

The East had a similar view of the West.

But God chooses to work His miracles where and when He wills, not when and where we "give Him our permission."

Miracles speak to the Presence of God in a person or place. They do not say anything about God's approval on our human theologies and Church separations.

Miracles do not, truth be told, even affirm God's pleasure, but also God's displeasure.

For example, the Eucharistic Miracles that have occurred and still do (Joan Carroll Cruz's book is excellent in this regard) show that such miracles occur as a definitive sign of God's displeasure at lack of faith or respect in someone in Church etc.

St John Chrysostom wrote about how those who dared approach the Holy Mysteries without having confessed received Communion that was as hard as stones!

The Miracle of the Holy Fire began to occur centuries before the Schism when Christians from all directions worshipped together at Jerusalem.

It doesn't belong to any one Church as the Church of the Resurrection/Holy Sepulchre doesn't belong to any one Church either.

Miracles such as the appearance of Our Lady at Zeitoun over a Coptic Orthodox Church in 1968 don't mean that we should all join a Particular Church since it is the "true Church."

Russian Orthodox in France developed a great devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes without feeling the need to join Roman Catholicism.

They even interpreted Our Lady's statement about the Immaculate Conception as relating to the Conception of Her Son!

A number of Western icons, including St Seraphim's icon of Our Lady, made their way to Russia and became miraculous there.

And yet, this in no way means that the West is somehow the "true Church" to the Orthodox!

Again, the Holy Fire belongs to all Christians as it began its manifestation when the Church was completely One.

The fact that it persists despite our divisions perhaps demonstrates, as one cleric once said, that "our walls of separation do not extend all the way up to heaven!"

Alex

If it is a fact that this miraculous event first occurred prior to the schism, then is it admissible to say that the miracle of the Holy Fire pertains to all of us?

Has any representative of the Latins tried, or requested, to celebrate the Holy Mass at the appointed time in place of the GO representative? If so, what happened?

Has there been a move by the condescending world of modern science (a la its attempt to debunk the authencity of the Holy Shroud of Turin and of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano) to disprove the miraculous occurrence? I am not sure the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate would agree to this. I think Orthodoxy is not as open as we Catholics are in accommodating the prying eyes of modern science into the numerous miraculous manifestations of our Faith.

I do believe in miracles! But for the Greek Orthodox Church to claim that she is THE true Church by virtue of this miracle alone is, likewise, as inexplicable as the miracle itself!