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Mar 25th, 2025
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Semper Fidelis.
Or,
To thine own self be true.
Or,
Whatever.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Dear Daniel,
But some of us do . . .
Alex
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Dear Alex, Thank you for the Greek New Year's wishes!  It is very good to have you back here. As for the subject matter of my post and the ensuing response, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and sigh  With much love in our Saviour, Alice
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Some of you may disagree with me, but it is necessary for Eastern Catholics to come to terms with papal primacy, and to understand that the papacy ultimately plays an important role in God's design for the Church. Otherwise, there is no point in us being in communion with Rome, especially with all of the abuse that we have had to put up with from certain members of the Catholic communion.
If I believed that Papal primacy wasn't important, I would become Orthodox first thing tommorrow, and have instant gratification: a full cycle of liturgical services, a married priesthood. It is only because I believe in the papacy that I remain Eastern Catholic, and continue to join others in the struggle to restore our identity. Well said, Anthony! I think some of us (and there was a point in my spiritual journey when it was also true of me) have uncritically accepted all the anti-papacy arguments from some Orthodox sources. We as Eastern Catholics need to come to terms with this. Perhaps there's a need for a positive presentation of the role of the papacy from an Eastern perspective...not merely as some apologetic but also as a challenge to the way the papacy is sometimes viewed by some in the West? David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com
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Brian wrote: One of the reasons why I could not personally remain Eastern Catholic or consider myself "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and yes, I used that term for many years, is that I could not justify calling myself Orthodox while being in communion with a Church which had encapsulated "Pastor Aeternus" into it's Dogma which is (in my opinion) alien to the mentality of the Eastern Church. While I disagree with you, Brian, I understand you made your decision sincerely. As for myself, I think one can be "Orthodox in communion with Rome" and fully accept the teachings of the Catholic Church. I think that "Pastor Aeternus" is only one piece of the equation and is not that far removed from the Formula of Pope St Hormisdas, for example. How the primacy of the papacy is exercised with regards to the Eastern Churches does not have to operate the way it does now, however. David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com
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Some of you may disagree with me, but it is necessary for Eastern Catholics to come to terms with papal primacy, and to understand that the papacy ultimately plays an important role in God's design for the Church. Folks: Could we consider what Cardinal Newman wrote to Bishop Moriarty on July 27, 1870: "Let us be patient, let us have faith, and a new pope and a reassembled council may trim the boat"! Pax Tecum, Scott
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Some of you may disagree with me, but it is necessary for Eastern Catholics to come to terms with papal primacy, and to understand that the papacy ultimately plays an important role in God's design for the Church. Folks: Might we consider what Cardinal Newman wrote to Bishop Moriarty on July 27, 1870: "Let us be patient, let us have faith, and a new pope and a reassembled council may trim the boat"! Pax Tecum, Scott
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Cardinal Newman was a great bulwark against Ultramontanism and was always distrusted for it in the English Catholic Church.
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Slava Isusu Christu! First off, nice to be back at the forum after a hiatus Now to the spheal...I am a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic who came back to this Church after leaving it for the OCA a couple years ago. I came back because after I had experienced Orthodoxy I realized that the Church I had left was ORTHODOX. The same Spirit, the same Faith, the same problems and a few unique ones. I came back home to my hunky Rusyn Church. I thank God for it. Throwing quotes from the Canons at people is morally wrong. The Canons never superceded the Gospel and Christ's censures to people who believed they had the 'truth' but in reality were "white-washed tombs." We can never forget that the historic "schisms" are not our fault unless we decide to create new ones. East and West split, yeah, but did Christ? We know the reasons for the historic splits. We knew it was about power; it was about control; it was about mis-communication. It wasn't about Christ! It wasn't about Love and the fellowship of the bretheren! Now it must feel really good to be able to say who is in and who is out, but only CHRIST can say that; and he WILL say that when His Divine Majesty splits the eastern sky and calls us to be judged. Lord Have Mercy! It seems many converts today want the perfect Church, not the New Testament Church. They want long services and long beards as a proof that they have found the island of "true believers" at last. But that is a superficial facade, a pharasical illusion. A true Christian is a true Christ. And if we do not do the works of Him whose name we call our own we are not worthy of Him. Converts want a Church that is tailored to them. They in spite of denials want the Anthonite McChurch; they want to be a part of a counter-cultural sect of hold-outs from the 17th Century. They neither understand what asceticism means nor have they been guided into maturity. (If this upsets you then you have proved my point). Orthodox Catholicism is the Way. It is not the toy or property of any select groups of "true" whatever. Some complain they do not get enough from our Byzantine Catholic parishes, but in reality they will never be satisfied until they are on a desert Island with the "remnant." It is a satanic mentality. Christ created us to empty ourselves for others! I work weekends at a local soup kitchen and help feed poor and needy families and you know it has changed my life. When you look into the eyes of a hungry mother and her two kids as she says "thank you, God bless you!" then you know you have seen Christ. We must reach out beyond ourselves. What good is long services without doing the work of Christ? What about the poor, what about single parent moms, what about the elders who are lonely, the homeless?! How dare we sit spiritually obese when others are dying not only for lack of spiritual food, but also for lack of real food. May God have mercy upon me, a sinner for not doing enough. I will tell you Satan is good, he is smart; he will send us off looking for the perfect Church, for the most Orthodox, for the most monastic, for the most pious community and we will never find it. Satan keeps our eyes off the Christ in the streets so we can feel special in our enclaves of so-called "true" and "perfect" Churches. Christ said: "When I was in prison did you visit me, when I was hungry did you feed me..." If we do not do His mission in the world all the services in the Orthodox and Catholic universe will not give us admission to His heavenly Kingdom! As I type this I am convinced that Satan desires to sift the convert like wheat; indeed he has worked on me, but I have found deliverance in eyes of the poor, in an appreciation that the dismissal at Liturgy is not about going home to watch the football game; I have met Christ not only in the Divine Liturgy, but also on the streets, our Lord's poor and needy. Lord Jesus Christ Son of God pray for those who cry unto thee! This is not some joke. It is not a slam against long services and those who desire the monastic life instead of the ascetic in the domestic Church. It is a judgement against false piety and counter-Gospel values. "Convertitis" is a disease that can be cured with loyalty to one's Church, stewardship of time and money, serving the poor and the fringes, and a realization that we can NEVER find the perfect Church. You take that medicine and you will see a change in your approach to your parish community. If you don't then I am sure in 10 years you will be the Metropolitan of some "True" Orthodox community of some sort, of those who are the only one's left; whose battle cry will be on that proverbial desert Island: Athanasius Contra Mundum. Oy Vey! Sincerely in Christ, Robert Horvath
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I could not justify calling myself Orthodox while being in communion with a Church which had encapsulated "Pastor Aeternus" into it's Dogma which is (in my opinion) alien to the mentality of the Eastern Church. How very, very interesting, Brian. Over the past year and a half you have on numerous occasions made a hit-and-run swipe at "papal claims" or "Pastor Aeternus" on this forum, but you have not even deigned to respond to direct requests for clarification and discussion. Do your insights into what is encapsulated go beyond Chick-like swipes? Are they for public discussion or strictly for sub rosa machinations? Would love a discussion of the mentality of the Eastern Church. Any chance of openness on this issue?
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Dear Robert- Prophesy, brother! What an inspiring post, full of the wisdom of experience. I'll tell you one thing: there are a lot of Roman Catholics drawn to the East but who are driven away with the sort of anti-papal talk of which you speak. I know, I have been there!
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Just to give some context to the quote from Cardinal Newman: �The Church moved on to the perfect truth by various successive declarations, alternatively in contrary directions . . . The late definition does not so much need to be undone, as to be completed . . . Let us be patient, let us have faith, and a new Pope, and a re-assembled Council may trim the boat� (Letters and Diaries, xxv, 310). Cardinal Newman did not reject the definition of Vatican I. As I understand, he felt the definition was "inopportune," but he accepted it. Some commentators feel that Vatican II fulfilled Newman's thoughts here. I think Vatican II's emphasis on collegiality did provide some balance to Vatican I. I think many of us Eastern Catholics feel even more could be done. David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com
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Originally posted by djs: I could not justify calling myself Orthodox while being in communion with a Church which had encapsulated "Pastor Aeternus" into it's Dogma which is (in my opinion) alien to the mentality of the Eastern Church. Djs, on the other hand, you have on numerous occasions seemed to display an equallly irritatng tendency to impugn other's motives (I hope you even have a sense of humor over the "Orthodox conspiracy" entries on the other thread!!) We don't have to agree but DON"T impugn a person that you do not know, ok?? I agree with those Hierarchs such as His Grace, Bishop +Kaliistos who has said that the Ultramontanist view of Papal authority that came from Vatican I and yes, Pastor Aeternus, is not in the ethos of The Eastern Church with one Hierarch deemed to have authority even over an Ecumenical Council to possess the charism of Infallibility. I don't follow those extremists on the Orthodox side who rail at the Pope. I believe he is a very holy man and Christian leader. I just don't believe he is Infallible. That is left to the Church in Council. Hoping and praying for peace here, Brian
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Orthodox Catholic Toddler Member
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Dear Mr. Robert Horvath
Thank you
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner
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on the other hand, you have on numerous occasions seemed to display an equallly irritatng tendency to impugn other's motives (I hope you even have a sense of humor over the "Orthodox conspiracy" entries on the other thread!!) We don't have to agree but DON"T impugn a person that you do not know, ok?? I think there are some vagante groups that are using the internet in a very slimy way, and I think the general issue merits some concern, even if you and Michael are beyond reproach. I am also generally concerned about relationships in which adults are advising and exerting influence on minors outside of family interactions or family-approved professional interactions. This issue came up on this forum before. I apologize to anyone whose motives I have unreasonably, and with insufficient knowledge, impugned. I also apologize to those whose motives I have reasonably, and with sufficient knowledge, impugned.
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