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you would be amazed that Evangelical Protestants (EP) and Eastern Christians have a lot in common.one of the biggies is the idea of transformation. I have heard many a EP sermon dealing with the idea of transformation.EP ministers preach Romans 12 with the idea that we need to be transformed, an EC (Eastern Christian, whether Orthodox or Catholic is immaterial)believes in the idea of Theosis, that is, deification of the believer, to become like Christ, which is our end. In both cases, it is the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as we respond to the Uncreated Energy, that is the Grace of God in our lives. I ignore Latin Catholicism as it is not where I am at, so don't ask me what they teach on this matter, to be perfectly frank, I don't care beyond an intellectual level. anyways, there is the phenomenon of EPs converting to Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholicism, because I feel that on a subconscious level at least, the EP is finding affinity with the idea of Theosis as resonates with the idea of transformation in the life of the believer. there is also the idea of historical continuity and authority that would attract the EP who is searching. we of the EC community have that historical continuity and authority as we hold to a literal line reaching back to the Apostles, and from them to our Lord Jesus Christ. Mainline Protestants,turn to Latin Catholicism for the idea of historical continuity and authority (there used to be a riddle that went: why do Mainline Protestants have a weather vane on top of their church steeples? because they want everyone to know that they follow every wind of doctrine). But Protestantism , whether it be anywhere from Fundamentalist to Liberal, has this in common: the idea that Man and God meet person to Person, not collectively, but on on individual basis, a quite existential concept, but it is what I conclude.
On the idea of worship: EPs are in the process of truning their services into worship services, as a number of articles in Christianity Today attest. Gone are the days when a pile of songs and a forty five minute sermon ending with the choir singing the same verse over and over until everyone runs up to the front of the church and get save all over again will do.EPs are searching for the mystery of worship, and as are thoughtful Latins (who can't seem to find it in the Masses that have dumped their ancient worship for Puff the Magic Dragon). While the Episcopals, the High Church, at least, have beautiful and reverent Masses, that communion, at least here in the States, has problems with Liberalism in the areas of Theology and in moral teaching, and an EP will not go for that mess, thus here we are boys and girls, in the EC community (ain't that convenient?), and we got something to offer.
Much Love,
Jonn

my mother's family is Protestant, from the time of the Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam (New York), to the preaching of the disciples of David Brainerd amongst the Shinnecock Natives, to my maternal grandmother's Prussian Lutheran ancestors who settled around New Orleans before the War Betwixt the Yankees and the Americans (Granny Clampett's view). my father's family are Catholics. I was baptized in a Passionist monastery as a babe, but raised myself as far as religion is concerned. I was a member of the Mormon church for a good part of my youth, but returned to my Catholic roots and have been an Eastern Catholic for all of that time.Oh, I was came to Jesus in a Presbyterian church when I was nine. ?s answered?
Much Love,
Jonn

I was raised in the American Bible Belt in a place where it was taken for granted that everyone attended a Baptist church. The Ku Klux Klan was very influential in the town where both my parents were born. The Ku Kluxers beat, tarred & feathred those that didn't agree with them & their "preacher" often talked about the evils of "papism." There is still a lot of anti-Catholicism and anti-Apostolic Faith feeling out there among those people, but it is just recently, with the passing of John Paul II, that I have come to realize that there are a lot of sincere Evangelical Protestants searching for the truth. And things have really changed in America during the past 50 years. Mel Gibson & John Paul II had a huge influence on what EPs think about our faith (& on what their preachers preach in church).

We Eastern Christians should recognize the thirst that EPS have for the Apostolic Faith. We should reach out to them, invite them to our churches & explain what it is they might experience in our liturgy and the Eucharist.

Stojgniev

Dear Stojgniev,

I was raised in an era when Baptists believed Catholics were bound for hell and visa versa. I, as an Orthodox, was told that if an Orthodox Church did not exist in an area, then I should attend a Protestant one since Catholics will do their utmost to convert me.

Things have changed since Vatican II. We have to thank Pope John XXIII and especially John Paul II for that. We have to also thank true Evangelical Christians such as Billy Graham as well as Pat Robertson and his influential 700 club.

I recall the story of how Billy Graham became well known to the American people. At the beginning he was merely another Baptist tent style preacher. What he refused to do though, no matter how much pressure he was under, was tell people that they must become 'Baptist' in order to be 'saved'.

When he decided to have a tent revival meeting in Los Angelos in the 1950's, the story goes that a woman who prayed for the successes of those meetings, was inspired to call William Randolph Hearst.

Now we must realize that Hearst lived in quite a large mansion so it was basically impossible for him to answer the phone, yet he actually picked up the phone and was convinced to 'push' Billy Graham, (or whatever the word is in the newspaper industry). Graham was written up in all the papers and the tent revival went on and on for quite some time. The rest is history.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

Thanks for your response. In reply, I don't want to be mean-spirited, especially at this moment in history when I feel the Holy Spirit is encouraging dialogue among all Christians.

I recently watched Pat Robertson's inspiring tribute to John Paul II on his program. Slava Isusu Christu! I am grateful to all those Protestant evangelists who have commemorated the passing of John Paul II. Pan Bog zaplac! as is said in Poland.

I am convinced that Billy Graham is a man inspired by God. I am happy that he has led so many people to Christ, but I must say that I am intimidated by the cultural aspects of his religion.

Every human religion and belief has both a spiritual and a cultural/ethnographic aspect. That's very obvious in the various Orthodox Churches, for example. Estonian Orthodoxy is hardly Serbian Orthodoxy.

Raised in the Bible Belt, I can't help but feel a certain apprehension at all the cultural trappings of American fundamentalistism, whether it be the work of Billy Graham or Jimmy Swaggart. I have observed several of Billy Graham's crusades on TV & the message is certainly sincere, but I can't help but regret that his message is surrounded by all the trappings of Low Church American Protestantism. And I wince, observing that culture projected into Europe, Latin America & all the corners of the world as if it were some universal norm. It is enormous ethnocentrism to think that Filipinos, for example, should be inspired by the melody & English lyrics of "Amazing Grace." "That Old Rugged Cross", southern Anglo gospel quartets & steel guitars have absolutely nothing to do with religion, from my own personal perspective, though it is precisely those cultural attributes that make many Anglo-Americans break into tears and "accept the altar call." It is a shallow, ethnocentric emotionalism. When I consider the limitations of American Protestantism, I am grateful for the universality of Apostolic Christianity!!!

I mentioned the Ku Kluxers who were active in the town where my parents were born. Their designated "preacher" publicly wore a jewel encrusted burning cross & his favorite topic was "the evils of papism." Those folks also loved gospel quartets & steel guitars. I have over the years developed some aversion to all the cultural characteristics of Low Church American Protestantism.

I know that Bily Graham has preached from the pulpit of some Orthodox churches in Russia. Can we hope someday that he might accept or at least acknowledge some liturgical aspect of Apostolic Christianity? In preaching to those millions, he never got too far from the cultural roots of Anglo-American North Carolina.

Z Bogiem,

Stojgniev

Dear Stojgniev,

Don't believe for one second that everyone will give up their culture in order to become an American Evangelical although a few might. Besides, not all Evangelicals are fundamentalists. These people though are doing, and sacrificing whatever they can to evangelize the world in the only way they know how. Of course they don't understand that everyone will not cry when they hear Amazing Grace. They can't even understand how we can pray to Mary and the saints. After all it was not part of their nurturing.

But just think, wouldn't it be wonderful if all the Christian faiths could unite, and each one could give whatever 'gifts' were given to them, (such as organizational, spiritual, etc.) for the glory of God and His Church. You know it's not impossible. The Evangelicals can become 'movements' within the Church.

Zenovia

Dear Stojgniev,

I recall Father Groechel saying, (certainly a future Catholic saint) that he only wished that the ladies in his Church could be as saintly as those he knew in the community he lived in.

Now Father Groechel worked in the S. Bronx (taking care of unwedded mothers) and lived among the black Evangelicals. He also praised the generosity of the Jewish business men he knew.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

It has become ever more clear to me after the passing of John Paul II that all Christians have a contribution to make to the universal Church. With Christians of the Apostolic Faith, that contribution is in the realm of spirituality and appreciation of the Eucharist and Sacraments. With many Protestants, their contribution is with knowledge of Scripture.
If united, what we could do to change the world!!! As the Russians say, Daj Bog! Lord grant it!

But a major problem, as I see it, is the hopeless ethnocentrism of Low Church American Fundamentalism. Their "commission" throughout the world presupposes that Low Church Anglo-American Fundamentalism is some univeral norm. While the Apostolic liturgy is universal (even in its local varieties), "That Old Rugged Cross" is not universal.

Z Bogiem,

Stojgniev

I'm curious as to what this ABt project is really all about. It's not like there hasn't been an Aramaic translation of the Scriptures for centuries. Just pick up a copy of the Peshitta [peshitta.org] . Is it that there isn't a Protestant version, with the text and notes skewed to their p.o.v.? As for 'evangelizing' Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and NonChalcedonian Orthodox, I have BIG problems with this. We may squabble with one another, but our arguments are family fights. Protestantism is an outsider IMO, seeking to undermine the apostolic faith.

"As for 'evangelizing' Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and NonChalcedonian Orthodox, I have BIG problems with this."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Actually 'evangelizing' Europe would not be a bad idea. It is very 'Pagan'.

Now try to look at these 'preachers' as a growth product. They are starting people off into a life of Christ. People that 'never' have known Christ...even though some might have been baptized.

Now don't believe that I'm in favor of many of them. I recall watching the Pentacostal Swaggart jumping all over the TV screen and wondering how these people could say they love God and yet do nothing but bash the RCC. Well we know what happened to Swaggart, but years later I found out that they were doing something called 'sheparding'. It was a form of control of one person watching over another, and Pat Robertson said on his program that he kept warning them that it was 'heresy'. Well after that, they kind of fell apart.

I also dislike Benny Hinn, although having gone to school in the South many years ago, I can understand young people running to hear him preach. Now that is much better than having them run to these horrific Rock Bands with their 'satanic' music. So in that sense, I'm not too much against him, nor am I against the 'Rock' Christian music. Actually, I would have loved to see the teenagers in my family going to their concerts rather than the one's they did go to.

I am truly fond of people like Billy Graham and Pat Robertson that will Evangelize but not prosletyze. The point is though that the Evangelicals do manage to reach people. If they could accept the basic tenets and beliefs of out faith, they could become a very active 'movement' within it.

Zenovia

Good point. The United States I think needs some good evangelizing or at least catechesis as well. I have in mind some of the anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox apologists, whom I personally see as enemies of Christ. I don't have a problem discussing our differences, but I really tire of the endless nonsense about the Blessed Theotokos, the Communion of Saints, the Mass/Divine Liturgy, ikons/images, etc. Look, we have our own differences but at least we respect the Seven Great Ecumenical Councils. With many Protestants it seems we have to re-hash ad nauseam the ridiculous nonsense settled centuries ago. That's the problem I have with Protestantism.

Pax Christi,
John
Just Your Average Catholic Guy [john-betts.blogspot.com]

Stojgniev,

I was searching for something and came across this thread; I remember reading the first couple of pages, but think I missed this final one. Just wanted to revive it long enough to say a few things about Billy Graham.

Forty years ago, he was scheduled to speak at Boston College. In my (then) young Catholic mind, an invitation to a fundamentalist preacher by a Jesuit college was tantamount to heresy but, out of curiousity, I went. To my surprise, he was introduced by a familiar voice, one most likened to the rubbing of gravel across a washboard, the late beloved Richard Cardinal Cushing, of blessed memory. In the years before or since, I have never heard a more powerful speaker.

Billy Graham is one of those whom you all too rarely encounter in this life, a genuinely good person, personable, of sound moral convictions, with definite qualities of holiness, who believes in God as he understands Him, seeks to bring others to or back to Him, and has been given unique skills and talents to do so (if you have ever heard him preach, you cannot help but know what I mean). Is he divinely ordained or inspired to do what he does? I think it would be very hard to believe that he is not an instrument of God, working in His Own mysterious ways.

This is a man who does not judge others and counts persons from all faiths, of all political leanings, of all stations in life, among his friends. Bishop Sheen and Cardinal Cushing, both of blessed memory, very unlike men, called him "friend". Hierarchy across the spectrum, liberal to conservative, meet with him, speak of him with admiration and affection, and cooperate with his crusades.

Perhaps one of the least known facts on the part of laity is that Graham does not proselytize among Catholics or other churched persons. Let me explain what I mean when I say that he doesn't proselytize churched persons. At evangelical crusades, persons who "decide", "seek to be saved", "make a commitment" are asked to complete so-called "decision cards". These are then forwarded by crusade staff to a church near the person's home - inevitably one of the same theological bent as the preaching evangelist. Graham's staff assures that decision cards made out by Catholics are forwarded to local Catholic churches (the same is true for all churched persons; unless they ask otherwise, they are referred to a church/synagogue of their own denomination).

An official of the Pontifical Bible Institute, speaking of Graham's crusades, said:

For a discussion of Graham's ecumenical spirit, focusing especially on his relationship with Catholics, and written from the standpoint of fundamentalists (who despise the fact that, nominally, Graham is one of them), see: Billy Graham & Rome [wayoflife.org] .

Some quotes from Dr. Graham:

While Southern Baptists are heavily into proselytizing and Billy Graham is a Southern Baptist, it doesn't follow that Graham proselytizes. I think it's reasonable to believe that the incredibly diverse range of Catholic hierarchs, American and otherwise, who (at Graham's request) have sent priests, religious, and laypersons to his Crusades over the past several decades (to provide immediate ministry contact to Catholics) are an excellent barometer of the experience and comfort level of the Church with Graham's techniques.

There are relatively few persons in the past century who can be cited as having been personally responsible for causing more people to reach out to/for Christ than Billy Graham. And, almost invariably, any person who takes Christ into their life is the better for it; if they do so as a Catholic or an Orthodox, that's wonderful - if they do it in another Christian community, it's likely still better for their immortal soul than remaining unchurched.

IMHO, Billy Graham's ministry is not without God's favor. I wish he was a Catholic but he isn't. If Catholicism had a site akin to Yad Vashim and a concept akin to that of a "Righteous Gentile" - (to paraphrase words that have accrued an aura of sanctity through their use by our Jewish brothers and sisters - and, by using them, I neither intend to offend nor to diminish the context of their familiar use) - Billy Graham would be properly termed a "Righteous Protestant".

May God grant him many years,

Neil, an unabashed admirer of Rev. Dr. Graham for these 40 years since

I'm not so sure about this. I have met plenty of Protestants who believe that Jesus is fully human (in all ways except sin) and fully divine: the Son of Man and the Son of God.

I spent years away from the Church. When I came back, it was the Christ-like example of people close to me that made me become open again to the Gospel.

And, I suspect that is why so many Protestants --Evangelicals and Pentecostals especially-- are so successful at making converts. Many of them truly know Jesus Christ, and they truly love Him, and they truly try to fulfill His loving command to spread His Gospel.

Yes, there are some fanatics. But it is not fanaticism alone or even mostly that explains the huge success of EP and PP these days.

This is my own theory, but I'll share it. I think that the there are three parts to the Gospel. There is the conversion experience: faith in Christ, confession of sins to Him, being forgiven by Him, and keeping His commandments. There is then purification: rooting out vices, acquiring the virtues. Another way to put it is this: in stage 2, we harmonize our basic drives from selfishness (vices) through selflessness (virtues) toward living the beatitudes. The third stage is when we actually are filled with the selfless Love of Christ. We grow in it and want to share it with others. And, all of this together (and often simultaneously) is theosis. Put another way, theosis consists of conversion, purification and sanctification. But all of this process of theosis is based on personal knowledge of Jesus Christ and personal openness to the Holy Spirit.

Well, it seems that the Protestants have this same process of theosis because they believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. However, they work the process of theosis without the sacraments / mysteries and without the Tradition.

If the tools of theosis are in three parts (faith/Bible, sacraments/mysteries, tradition), the Protestants generally don't have the last two sets of tools: sacraments and tradition. Instead, they have only the first set of tools: faith and Bible. Yet, many of the Protestants (especially the Evangelicals and Pentecostals) thrive in the life in Christ and in the Holy Spirit with only that first set of tools of theosis: faith and Bible.

I wonder why.

The only answer I can come up with is this. It can be easy to overlook Christ Himself when there is so much in the sacraments and the Tradition. That might not make any sense theologically or mystically, but it can often be the case on a physical level. In the apostolic Churches, it can be easy to get so caught up in the ritual of sacraments and the points of Tradition (which is then "tradition" with a small "t") that people can overlook or forget Jesus: the Man who is also God. But the Protestants don't have that problem as much because they generally don't have as much of the sacraments and the Tradition. Instead, especially among the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, there seems to be a constant emphasis on immersing themselves in the Holy Spirit so as to encounter and follow and grow to love Jesus Christ. Thus, while the Protestants may often not have much knowledge of sacraments / mysteries and Tradition, they often do know Him: Jesus.

And it is Jesus who makes and keeps Christians.

And hence, those who truly know Jesus tend to gain the most converts to Jesus.

And, sadly for us members of the apostolic Churches, the ones who seem to know Him most immediately and most freshly in most of their people are the Evangelical and Pentecostal Protestants.

In short, I sometimes think that the apostolic Churches need a revival. Not a Protestant revival that would stop after conversion, but a revival that, in turn, would re-educate and re-energize people in the sacraments and Tradition. A revival that would reawaken people to the immense riches that await them in the full process of theosis: faith and Bible, sacraments/mysteries and Tradition.

--John

Dear John,

I applaud an excellent post with many excellent points. I know all too many Orthodox that seem to have missed step one: real personal knowledge, acceptance and love of the Jesus Christ of the Bible, yet have proceeded to step two and step three...and I sadly say that I just don't know 'if they get it'. One older couple I know, that receives the Eucharist weekly and more often than any other parishioners in my Church, once approached me about a subject their son heard us having at Bible Study about accepting death as Christians, etc. The woman confided to me that she was shocked at alot of what was overheard because she and no one else in her family understood death and that they were really fearful of it. She even wondered about reincarnation! I almost didn't know where to start...

A cradle Orthodox priest I once met told me that his calling to the Orthodox priesthood started ONLY because of the influence of faith in Christ that his Evangelical roommate in college had.

My own husband grew up in a very adherent Orthodox household, and he really enjoyed Church and the rubrics and the fasts, yet when I met him (he was still in college) he really had very little true faith and understanding of Christ. It was only because of a bum on the NYC subways that gave him the then popular version of the NT called 'Good News for Modern Man' and my urging for him to read it that his faith started to blossom.

The stories I know of faithful Orthodox who have been influenced by Evangelical Protestants can go on and on....

That is why we need some basic 'Christianity 101' classes in our churches...I understand that the Roman Catholic church has actually started something like this. I heard it on EWTN 'Book Mark' one day, so I don't know how widespread it is.

In Christ,
Alice

I have said this once before, and I will say it again: that the Evangelical Protestants and the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox are much closer to each other than one can imagine. both believe in a personal transformation due the work of the Holy Spirit based on a personal faith in Christ. I feel that both groups can have a meaningful dialogue and sharing that has yet to be fully explored.I will not discuss here the idea of Grace, created or uncreated, but I will say that while we in the East have the idea of the Church as being a divine and human institution, and not as a Nestorian (to use Lossky's idea in his Mystical Theolgy of the Eastern Church) manisfestation, we are moving closer. I think that it is wonderful that someone received a Good News for Modern Man NT from a "bum" on the subway, and that a priest really started to discern his call due to his Evangelical roommate, but let's return the blessing to our Evangelical Protestant friends.
Much Love,
Jonn