www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics

Same old errors. I wonder if many 'evangelical' groups aren't really arians in new clothes? Usually they have some old heresy hidden secretly in the evangelical zeal.

Ecumenism is wonderful, and it is good to respect others, and recognize the good where it is.

However, the 'your way is fine for you' and 'my way is fine for me' attitude won't work. We have to be ready to respect people, and also state truth (and name error) firmly and clearly.

I am not sure if some of these are Evangelical; however, in general Protestantism seems to have only recycled the old heresies. One point is Arianism, which can be found in such groups as Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals. There seems to be an element of Gnosticism as well--the rejection of the Church Fathers, in general, is a reminder of it.

Another thing is that most evangelicals put catholics of all types on the bullseye for conversion. Since they are easy targets. They don't seem overly agressive at converting Muslims. Perhpas because it is near impossible to convert Muslims bu the Bible alone dialogue they use. SInce catholics already accept the Bible as the Word of God it is far easier to play Bible proof texting and misrepresent the catholic faith. But ask them to dialoge with someone using logica and reason and not the Bible and that can't do it.

Dan,

This is a link to the churches in Erie [erieillinois.org] ; if you scroll down, you'll find Pastor Badal's. Now, I have to admit that I didn't stop and consider Erie's location vis-a-vis Chicago when I suggested that his focus was on converting Assyrians and Chaldeans in the Chicagoland area, rather than in their homelands.

I notice that there is an Assyrian Evangelical Covenant Church [geocities.com] in Chicago - on North Washtenaw. The site doesn't provide any info on the clergy serving it, but it does have a link to the Aramaic Bible Translation project that Ray referenced. (Notably, the ABT site makes no reference to Pastor Badal either, being generally sparse on names, other than those of a few translators.)

I can't find that Erie itself or Whiteside County has any significant immigrant population of any sort, let alone Assyro-Chaldean. So, I suspect that whatever evangelization Badal may be undertaking in Illinois is in Chicago itself, where virtually all the Assyrian and Chaldean Churches in the state are situated.

It is worth noting that Protestant evangelization among the Assyro-Chaldeans is not entirely new. The AOG and several Evangelical churches have been active in Iraq for a decade and a half now; what success they've had gets mixed reports. Their work though has been more directed at the Muslim population than the Catholics and Orthodox and they suffered rather
significantly in terms of arrests, murders of clergy, etc., for their efforts. The Anglicans have a much longer history there and their focus historically was aimed at the Assyrians; they've also contributed significantly to the body of Assyrian Church history and liturgical texts in English through translations that were undertaken on behalf of the British Bible Society.

There was one Protestant - former Chaldean or Assyrian - who was very active in evangelizing within those communities for some time. I can't recollect his name and a search didn't turn up anything on him, although he was garnering a fair amount of web publicity as recently as a year ago; much of his work was being done in the homelands of these Churches. Whether that individual was Badal, I can't remember.

Many years,

Neil

I pretty much agree with Nicholas point of view. We can respect people but is it charitable to not point their errors in faith? I believe this false ecumenism.

A Sister In Christ

Neil,

That's an excellent piece of research. Thank you. I suspect my assumptions about the Doctor in neighboring Prophetstown and her Evangelical Association and how she got there are correct.

Dan L

I have to wonder why they have any success rate worthy of note? Is it because the Eastern Catholics seldom grow up with an EASTERN Catholic primary and secondary education the way that many Latin Catholics have, so that their faith hasn't be drummed into them as constantly? (Let's also face it, many of you describe very long drives to church, so it would seem probable that many families with children are not as completely immersed in the Church, and generally have encountered mainly the Divine Liturgy)

Is it because having so much difference between the Eastern rite and the Latin rite that they may see as Easterners in a Latin school or parish has taught them that the WAY we worship makes no difference? Thus leaving them open to Protestants saying that the WAY we worship is irrelevant, we just need to Take Jesus As Our Personal Saviour??

Is it because we just ASSUME that our children can understand the theology and traditions of the Church? Most Protestants teach their children to impressively quote chapter and verse of the Bible. Most Eastern Christians do not do this, so that when someone comes along with "proof" of what they are saying, we don't know the answers in a pat way, nor have we ever heard the question before, and have no idea HOW to find it.

Is it because we are called to constantly struggle, and the idea of several Protestant groups that all you need to do is Say Yes To Jesus And Be SAVED appeals to those who know that Eastern Christians fast, say, but their Latin brethren don't, for the most part, but they are part of the Catholic Church, so WHY do EC's have to do all this, it makes no sense...and lo and behold, someone comes round and says "Be born again, then you can go off and have a snorking good time and forget all that WORK" So, they believe, and follow...

With immigrants, they may want to assimilate themselves into secular society...

I think that with the proper education, and FULLY sacramental life, an Eastern Christian can be proof against false teachings of protestants. But, that teaching must start in the home, and in a 100% positive manner, from approximately the age of reason (say, two years old)

Gaudior, suggesting the development of EC outreach and educational materials.

to all those who are whining about the Evangelical Protestants:
so, the EPs (Evangelical Protestants) are targeting Catholics of all stripes for conversion, whose fault is that?
Those who call the EPs "Arians" do not know what they are talking about, such an accusation is total rubbish and does not deserve anything more than my contempt and disrespect for such "opinions", and I will not retract what I just said until Hell freezes over, so I suggest that you accept it.If any of you want to reply condeming this, BRING IT ON! An Arian is one (like a Jehovah's Witness or an old time Unitarian) is one who denies that Jesus is God, but holds Him to be a bit lower than God, a created Being, albeit the first of God's creation. it is reminiscent of the old hero figure of Aryan mythology who endowed with supernatural powers, fight the battles of the deity against the forces of Evil.As a graduate of an EP seminary, I can assure you that the Christology taught there is exactly what is held by Holy Mother Church. Alas, the typical Catholic believes that the "holy trinity" consists of beer, ball games,and bingo,so I cannot expect him or her to know any better when any of them make chimp noises about something they know nothing about.To accuse EPs of a Christological heresy is a slap in the face of Berean, a Baptist who has been known to frequest this Forum, and whose education in the area of Christology I can vouch for, as we both sat at the feet of some of the same profs. It is also a slap in the face of EPs I know, including one gentleman whose funeral I attended this past Monday at First Presbyterian Church in Chattanooga. The gentleman was a ruling elder, sat on the boards of many a Christian ministry, and dedicated his life to the sharing of Jesus Christ, his God and Saviour (and mine as well)with others. it is a slap in the face of such fine men of God as Billy Graham, and of Ben Haden, who has been like a father to me for over thirty years, and was responsible for paying my way through seminary. Both of these men few of you could even pack either of their lunches.How dare you accuse EPs of not holding that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour is God .
To the one who made the statement of a world wide conspiracy, ad ridiculum,I should hope that what he said was a poor attempt at sarcastic humor.If not, it betrays the kind of 'thinking' indulged in by John Birch types who think there is a conspiracy in every cupboard and whose religiousity is manifested in either Mormonism or of a Catholicism that sees the second Vatican Council as heresy and the Mass in the vernacular as invalid because God doesn't understand English. It is a shame that evolution is a false theory, because such types need to evolve from their intellectual pithecanthropoid state.But again I hope the first impression that I had of that poster is the correct one, I like to give the benefit of a doubt.
The impression that more than a few EPs have of Catholics are beer swilling ignoramuses who fwan at the hand of the parish priest, licking said hand as does a dog,never thinking for himself. The Bible is a Protestant book that if a catholic sees such a horror, he starts genuflecting up and down like a monkey saying "no can reada the Bible, only priest can reada the Bible" whil frantically crossing himself, thinking that a ton of Hail Marys, etc. just make get him into Heaven, especially if he gives lots of money to the Church.
Pope LeoXlll issued an encyclical in the 1890's, not only permitting the Catholic laity to read the Bible, but encouraging reading as well. As far as an Aramaic translation of Scripure is concerned: good. Jesus spoke Aramaic notLatin. parts of the OT are in Aramaic (see parts of Daniel and of Ezra).
The Jesus film is an excellent film, a copy of which was presented to me by an Episcopalian lady, and I don't see the problem of any one, Catholic orwhatever, viewing the movie.
Learn about your faith, from an intelligent adult perspective, read the Bible, read Theology, but forHeaven's sake, don't hit the EPs or anyone else for that matter until you know what you are talking about.
Oh, at the Presbyterian elder's funeral, there wasn't a dry eye, or any of the histrionics you normally see at a funeral? why? the were not glad he was dead, we all loved him, and he was suffering in the last couple of years before he went on at the age of 92, but that wasn't it. we all knew he had gone to finally see Jesus faceto Face, he had that hope in his Saviour, and we rejoiced with my old friend T. Hooke McCallie, can you say the same?
Much Love,
Jonn

No, no, no! The modern day Trinity is "Me, Myself, and I." Haven't you been listening to the words in contemporary RC music?

Dear JohnNightwatcher,

I agree with you. What a slap in the face to all those Protestant ministers, their families and wives that went into uncivilized lands to evangelize. I think of the one recently in India that was burned in his car with his son for doing just that.

I also recall the wife of a Lutheran (I believe) minister from Canada that remained in India after her husband died. She continued to operate the hospital they opened and when Mother Theresa couldn't feed the 20,000 people living in a garbage dump, she asked her to take it over.

These are just a few of the thousands upon thousands of similar cases. Let's not generalize and condemn the saintly with the ignorant.

Zenovia

oops, my oversight.self centered music is also true. never listen to music at Mass,hum Gershwin to myself. give me the old timy Slavonic chants anyday.

Hi John,
I enjoyed reading your diatribe . I was wondering if you were raised Protestant? Wolfgang

Dear Friends,

The matter of "Arianism" is a very interesting one!

Cardinal Newman once likened the Protestants of his day to Socinians, Arians, Nestorians etc. even though those same Protestants would have strenuously denied the charge.

And I think we need to be careful about comparing today's Jehovah's Witnesses et al. to the Arians of old.

There were all kinds of Arians, including Semi-Arians who, like Wulfilas, affirmed that Jesus was indeed a "a great God" but not equal to the Father.

And ALL Arians actually worshipped Christ - something today's Witnesses et al. do not do (and Witnesses believe that Christ was once St Michael the Archangel).

In fact, when the Arian heresy was put down, a number of Arian saints continued to be honoured in the Catholic and Orthodox calendars - and so continue to this day.

In fact, until the Bollandists expunged his name, Arius himself was honoured in the Catholic Calendar of Saints under June 6 as "Saint Artotis"
and this throughout the Middle Ages.

This was put in deliberately by an Arianizing scribe at some point and it wasn't until the Bollandists discovered who this "Artotis" was and how he came to get into the calendar that his name was removed . . .

Also, St Artemius the Dux Augustalis of Egypt was most certainly an Arian. He was in Egypt destroying both pagan AND Christian temples - until he was killed by a pagan.

Arian martyrs who died for Christ tended to be accepted by the Church that overlooked the defect of their orthodoxy (See Fr. Holweck, The Dictionary of Saints who refers to St Sabas and St Nicetas the Goths as Arian priest ordained by the Arian bishop Wulfilas).

Alex

I have been lurking and getting to know all of you for quite awhile. I am an Evangelical Protestant who finds much in common with the members of this forum. I found my way here because I am researching the Eastern Catholic church. My daughter is drawn to the Eastern church and we have been to Divine Liturgy(as well as Vespers and Matins)a number of times. Although she is Orthodox, Frederica Mathewes-Green has been my guide to understanding the deep love for Christ that is present in the East; her books and articles have made sense for me of much that seemed very foreign and off-putting at first. Well, this is a longer introduction than I intended(and there's even more to the story, but I'll save that for another time.) I just wanted to add that I found it ironic that Evangelicals should be accused of being proponents of the one world system, as that is the old fundamentalist bromide that has been thrown at Catholics for many years. Just my 2 cents!
Respectfully,
Michele

I would have to agree with you about the one world system. The Protestant groups don't agree with each other enough to form a one world organization. I kind of think such would be anathema to them in the first place, given that some are suspicious of church/state relationships to begin with.