www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Women, Men, Brittany, and Humility

I read the closed-down thread on women and veils. Personally, I cover my head when it is the tradition of a parish I am visiting and do so joyfully - for example, when I visit my old baba's church. I do not do so otherwise. I find it uncomfortable and distracting. It is not the custom in my own parish.

I am fascinated that men are always so "into" this topic. Look to your own prayerful behaviors and postures, gentlemen - and let us women look to our own - indeed, we should all look to these things as individuals. I think that any gesture of sincere humility is to be embraced, by either sex. As Deacon Lance pointed out fairly, our clergy often appear with covered heads and with humility.

As I have said numerous times before, I think we would do better to try not to distract each other in church. I am horrified by some of the things people wear to church.

As a humorous aside, I am a distance runner. I used to pass a Catholic church on my evening runs. One night they had Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament and the hours were almost up. I had the urge to go and pray - but I didn't want to go in (it was winter, and I was decently covered) - but one of the priests saw me hesitating and said, "Come on in, you are far more decently dressed than most people I see." And he mentioned the Israelites "praying on the run" and said to come on in.

I realized that he was right - many people do not dress decently in the first place. To me, that is a bigger issue. I realize I am repeating an old post, but women and girls should not come to church dressed like Brittany Spears at her worst and men and any boy over 3 should not be there in shorts or t-shirts. We have to work on respect, first, and on humility as well.

Yes, but where does one draw the line? Some people think women without veils are as inappropriate in church as some of the things you complain about. I think it's all relative.

And while I generally agree on your recommendations as to what not to wear to the church, there are always some exceptions. For example, in the summertime down here in the Deep South it gets blisteringly hot, and I have worn khaki or plaid shorts with a tucked in golf shirt to Mass before.

I'm not necessarily defending this specifically, but simply using it as an example of the situations which sometimes mitigate the guilt of wearing what others might deem to be "inappropriate apparel" to church. I admit I don't know of anywhere that calls for some of the short skirts and revealing shirts that some girls wear to church, or where jeans are called for in any circumstance. One sees an abundance of this especially at youth Masses (I can barely type those two words out without throwing up).

Anyway, I think the most important word in your post was the third to last one. Humility in church is a huge problem; at least it is for me. Naturally, it's perfectly alright for me to want to look presentable, but oftentimes I find myself dressing up so I can be noticed. The purpose of dressing up for church is for Christ's sake: to show respect for Him, for the priest, and to not distract others in church.

Often, I find I'm wearing certain things or making sure my hair is perfect and my breath is minty fresh and I have my nice watch and shoes on, etc. so people will look at me. What an awful thing, right? I know it is, but I suspect it's the case with far more people than one thinks.

Logos Teen

I agree that is all relative, however, I think the people who think women without veils in church are inappropriate tend to be men. They never wore them in Roman Catholic churches in my lifetime and I only really saw women wearing them in recent years when I moved further South and where I encountered more folks who were of the SSPX variety. To me, someone dressed differently was distracting. If a woman came to church wearing a burqa, we'd stare. Some of what is appropriate is driven by local custom. In my baba's old Russian church, I wear a babushka, because it is custom there. But it does make me feel warm and itchy and distracted and I probably pay less attention - but I always figure, "when in Rome,...." ;-)

I have Serbian women friends who don't like to go to the local Russian church because the Russians don't like them to wear dress trousers even in winter and they are expected to wear babushkas there. I have learned that you don't tell Serbs - esp. those who are fiercely Orthodox - how to dress - but all my friends dress conservatively in church and are not distracting.

I totally hear what you are saying w/r/t dressing to impress. My argument is that people should look at THEMSELVES firstly and honestly and ask whether or not they have presented themselves appropriately in church.

My mom's advice actually works - I grew up near a Trappist monastery and the locals enjoyed speaking with the fathers there - she'd always say to always dress in church like you would to visit the monks and not shock the good brothers who work hard and pray for us.

In the local Roman Catholic diocese, they have told people from the pulpit not to wear shorts to church if they are over the age of 3 - all the local churches are air conditioned, as are most people's cars. My husband grumbles about it, because he goes to one of the churches and likes to wear polo shirts and khaki shorts, as you describe. I have convinced him that he can suffer for a mere hour in trousers, though. The Byzantine parish I go to does not have shorts-wearers in attendance - it's never been an issue. People there always seem to be appropriately garbed, except for one or two teenage girls who wear belly shirts (and they do not look good in them, either, in any context - they need to do some serious crunches).

Once a year for the picnic, the priest makes special mention that it is okay to come in in picnic attire, esp. if you are one of the workers. People sort of know what cuts it and what doesn't - and the ones who don't learn from others.

Really, Teen, it's okay to dress to impress a little. Don't dress to shock, though. People appreciate you if you have minty breath - and you should have minty breath. You're a lot nicer to stand around than a person who doesn't have minty breath, after all!

I think the deciding issue on what to wear should be decency. In our hot climate, I remember hearing a very conservative Latin Rite priest say he had no objection to shorts, as long as they were decent shorts. We all knew exactly what he meant. This was a priest who would meet scantily clad women tourists at the door and tell them they didn't have enough clothes on - he did it with men, too, in case the PC among us take offense. I don't have any problem with jeans as long as they are clean, and without holes. Denim is just another fabric and there's nothing about it that makes it any more or less reverent than any other fabric. Mini skirts and bare midriffs are going too far, and the suprising thing to me is that this even has to be mentioned, since it's common sense. But I have heard for years that common sense is not common at all. And what was said is true about needing to do crunches. The very people who look the worst in those revealing styles seem to be the ones who most often wear them.

With all due respect ...

I live in the South. The Tampa Bay area to be precise. It gets very hot and humid here. I suffer greatly from the heat, I sun burn in 10 minutes and I have been known to suffer heat stroke from merely an hour in the Florida heat. But that doesn't stop myself and my family from dressing appropriately for church attendance.

Cars and buildings have air conditioning.

And Christ bore far more discomfort than a bit of heat for our sakes - can we not deal with heat in order to be modestly and appropriately dressed when we approach Him in the Eucharist.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone. But I honestly can't see using heat as an excuse not to dress appropriately, modestly and decently for an hour.

I've seen this excuse (and in my opinin it is nothing but an excuse) for wearing sundresses (spaghetti straps), shorts, t-shirts and flip-flops to Mass and now, as all the other times, it just sounds so very lame.

I doubt anyone is offended, Carole - I think most of us here probably agree with you.

Hi, Annie_SFO and everyone else!

I think the reason men are "into" the topic of women wearing veils, and women's modesty in general, is because men are the ones who are sexually attracted to women. Christian men have to suffer the consequences when women dress in certain ways.

Thus, although I understand why Annie_SFO said men should look to their own prayers, etc., it is hard to do that when a distracting woman prances in front of one. And, btw, I don't mean just a woman who is trying to distract. In my experience, most women are very used to current fashion and, not being men, are poor judges of what distracts and what doesn't.

I heard the following story from my father. It was told to me as a true story, but it might just be a Catholic urban legend.

A young woman was at Mass dressed in a somewhat revealing manner. When she got up to go to Communion, the man behind her placed a firm hand on her shoulder and pushed her back down onto her knees saying, "You can't go to Communion because of the way you're dressed, because I can't go to Communion because of the way you're dressed.

God bless all.

LatinTrad

What I am getting at, is that I swim in more clothing than many people wear to Mass. Of course, having had skin cancer 3 times, I am not allowed in the sun anyway between April and October for more time than it takes to go from one building to another. I think we can all tell when people are decently dressed, and whether or not they are wearing clothing designed to be provocative. Do I want everybody covered from head to toe? No, I don't want that extreme or any other extreme to rule. A little common sense is in order, I think. But as I said earlier, it's apparently not very common anymore.

My two cents on head covering.

I used to dress horribly for church (both as a Protestant and as a Catholic). Clean jeans, t-shirt (no vulgar logos or anything) and tennis shoes that had seen better days.

Then I started reading about women and headcovering. I felt called to this observance, devotion, discipline (whatever you want to call it) on a personal level. I felt it was something I should do.

So I bought a chapel veil.

Then I realized how incongruous it was that I wanted to cover my head for the sake of modesty and as a sign of submission to Christ through submission to my husband but I continued to wear blue jeans and t-shirts.

So because I desired to cover my head it forced me to look at how I covered the rest of my body for Mass.

I now dress much more conservatively and modestly - all the time. I wear loose (but properly fitted) dresses nearly all the time now.

And I have found that the manner of my dress has affected the manner of my actions. The way I dressed affected my actions to some degree.

I also wanted to offer a thought on the following from LatinTrad:

5 years ago I would have thought that this was rather silly.

Then I decided to let my extremely short hair (my husband used to be in the Navy and our hair cuts were nearly identical except that mine was a touch shorter) grow out.

I had long known that in the area of sexual attraction men were more visually oriented than women. I just didn't know until I grew out my hair just how true that was.

In an effort to avoid giving too much information ... Until I had long hair I never realized just why so many models and actresses have long hair.

I know that to many women this sounds absurd. But hair really can be a source of temptation of the flesh for men.

In many ways our hair really is our glory. Perhaps covering it and hiding it from site isn't such a bad idea after all.

And if wearing a veil/head covering does for other women what it did for me in regard to enforcing the ideas of modesty and humility in dress below the head covering - perhaps it is worth encouraging women to think more about it.

Just my two cents worth.

Latin Trad,

This is very true. And what is worse (or just as bad, anyway) is when a girl walks in who's so revealing that you feel like you have to talk about her. My friends and I have spoken at the beginning of Mass when this girl I know walks in sometimes, saying things like "Oh my gosh she dresses like a slut; does she notice she's in church?" But think about how awful this is- - -calling someone a slut in church...and I have done it, regrettably...but if those clothes would have never been worn I would have never had occasion to say that, either.

Logos Teen

Logos Teen, When you quoted: "Oh my gosh she dresses like a slut ; does she notice she's in church?" You must have meant: "Oh my gosh she dresses like a loose woman ; does she notice..."? Surely they wouldn't use that other word..right???

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

The word we use is "HO." I guess that must be an Appalachian term for "loose woman."

Oh the old "the woman tempted me" line! Where have we heard THAT before???

Father Gregory, bless!

I'm so ashamed I said such a word in the presence of such a holy priest! Unfortunately the (other) S-word was in fact uttered!

Charles,

Here, a "ho" is usually a girl who dresses like a sl-t but who, additionally, has no style. A sl-t is, most of the time, quite stylish but still scantily clad.

Brian,

LOL, while it's true she didn't make me say it, and I shouldn't have, women's attire does have an effect on us men, who are never looking for pretty girls in church anyway.

Logos Teen

During my Catechism prior to joining the Orthodox Church, my priest often stated to my wife and I that we go to church not to impress other members, but we should always try to remember we are going to see Christ in the Eucharist and therefore dress as best as we can. I'm an overweight guy, so I don't wear the three piece suits, simply because my weight often fluctuates. So I always try to keep that in mind and yes, guys look at girls. We are reminded by Christ, "Judge not, lest thou be judged."