www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Mary as co-redemptrix

>Also, I suppose the Council of Hippo (is that right?)...which is one of the original 7 Ecumencial Councils...to discern which book is deed worthy...and which is a hoax..etc.<

Actually, the Council of Hippo was not an Ecumanical Council. It was a local council held in AD 393 and listed the same books of the Bible as Pope Damasus had the decade previous.

This has nothing to do with Mary as co-redemptrix. Could we please stick with the topic.

Blessings!

No it does not. However, the Immaculate Conception (like the Filioque) is something that certain parties on both sides will use as spring boards into other topics to show just how "far apart" Catholic and Orthodox beliefs are.

[This message has been edited by Ignatius (edited 07-05-2001).]

I agree, Ignatius, that folks will use these sticking-points as weapons to attack the 'other group'.

As Byzantine Catholics, we are Orthodox in spirituality and theology. It's our heritage. And our Bishops lead us in living our lives so that we come to God.

Unfortunately, our "in-communion" brethren come to us with all sorts of ideas that suggest that we Easterns need to define ourselves, but ONLY within the Western framework of validation.

Personally, I'm getting tired of it. I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever with folks who are truly discerning. But I would hope that the true pilgrims would avail themselves of the many documents available on this site (and other sites) before just jumping in and kinda-sorta demanding that we justify who we are and what we believe. I know quite well that the Western perspective wants 'statements' and 'pronouncements', but it is absolutely clear that we just don't do this in the same way that our Latin brethren do.

So, I get upset when folks come asking for 'clarification' of what we believe, when in reality -- I think -- , they are not willing to do some basic reading before coming in to request/demand a justification on our part.

I apologize to the true pilgrims who are searching for valid alternatives, but I am very angry when folks come seemingly desirous of a debate, or more accurately: an argument.

Please: do your homework before landing among us to seek validation of one or another point. As a Byzantine, I'm most interested in examining the theological and spiritual (and liturgical) relationship between the Orthodox and the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" than with the issues that are tearing the Roman community apart. For me personally, I'm not dismissing the problems of the Roman community, but I sincerely believe that these issues are less than relevant for us.

Both the Council and the concerns of our hierarchs lead us elsewhere. And I (and I suspect my brethren) have too muchon our plates than to be concerned with Western conundrums.

Blessings!

Dr. John,

You said, "I agree, Ignatius, that folks will use these sticking-points as weapons to attack the 'other group'.

I haven't seen anybody attacked in this thread. I certainly have not done so. It is not an attack to ask someone to explain why they hold to a certain belief in light of x,y, or z other facts or beliefs. Some of my questions to Bob the Orthodox person were off-topic - I'll try to do better.

As Byzantine Catholics, we are Orthodox in spirituality and theology...I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever with folks who are truly discerning.

Respectfully I think you do. Slowly, but surely you appear to be becoming more impatient on this topic in general and (I think) with me in particular. I think this as mine is the only post that I've seen on this topic that could remotely (and it is remotely) be construed to be anything other than discerning - which is exactly what I am doing.

But I would hope that the true pilgrims would avail themselves of the many documents available on this site (and other sites) before just jumping in and kinda-sorta demanding that we justify who we are and what we believe.

You are being very, very unfair and uncharitable. Perhaps many have showed-up here and treated you that way which is causing you to act this way? Most sites like this freely want questions and freely give them without demanding people do homework in advance. I certainly don't question your right to insist I do homework before asking questions, but this should be clearly stated in the board rules. Otherwise folks like myself assume you want questions in order to provide an answer for your faith as the Bible says. I have not been mean to anyone; rather you just expect me/others to ask a question and then accept the answer [no matter how obviously it does not answer the question given] without too many requests for the person to just give a direct answer. If they don't want to answer the question then they can always not reply or just say so.

Dr. John, I cannot say whether or not others *demand* things elsewhere on this board. However, I don't think this has happened on this topic. Could you be applying the behaviour of others to the rest of us/me with a broad brush stroke? You seem to be over-reacting a bit here (on this topic anyway).

I know quite well that the Western perspective wants 'statements' and 'pronouncements', but it is absolutely clear that we just don't do this in the same way that our Latin brethren do.

Hmmm... the most recent posts I made were directed at an Orthodox person asking some very obvious and central questions about their ecclesiology. Though certainly off-topic here, it is *not* "Latin" to ask simple questions like "Who could call an Ecumenical council among the Orthodox? Who would they invite since they don't claim to know for sure which groups are Orthodox since they lack central unity?"

So, I get upset when folks come asking for 'clarification' of what we believe, when in reality -- I think -- , they are not willing to do some basic reading before coming in to request/demand a justification on our part.

Respectfully, you can certainly enforce that as the moderator. But this does not appear to be a Biblical standard (always be ready to offer an account for your faith...). I'm not sure why you react this way. People at the Defending the Faith site get requests from people of all pursuasions - often hostile requests. Yet they usually give answers and don't tell people to read tracts first. If this forum is an exclusive club for people who aren't going to question the Byzantine Catholic folks then maybe that should be stated in the rules for the board.
Otherwise it is presumed that questions are desired and answers will be given initially - and perhaps followup homework would be required later. This is the pattern for most boards like this one.... if this one is different then it would be very helpful if the board rules stated that in advance - otherwise you cannot in fairness expect people to know this.

I apologize to the true pilgrims who are searching for valid alternatives, but I am very angry when folks come seemingly desirous of a debate, or more accurately: an argument.

I think you want pilgrims looking for alternatives who don't have too many questions or will accept the first answer given them no matter how inconsistent it seems - if too many questions (4? 5?) are asked then this looks like argument to you.
I believe the difference between debate and argument would involve anger, etc. Except for my angry red-smiley I used once (which I apologized for and explained was not directed at you folks personally) I have not been angry - though I am suspecting that folks here might be getting that way.

Please: do your homework before landing among us to seek validation of one or another point.

Please put this in the board rules. Otherwisse it is unfair to expect someone to know this in advance as most boards like this one freely welcome and answer questions without requiring homework in advance. I don't question your right to require the homework in advance, but I do question your right to get frustrate or angry when it was not made clear in advance it was required.


As a Byzantine, I'm most interested in examining the theological and spiritual (and liturgical) relationship between the Orthodox and the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" than with the issues that are tearing the Roman community apart.

ALL of the questions I raised are along these lines of Byzantine-Catholic (or any other Catholic) and the Orthodox.

So, I get upset when folks come asking for 'clarification' of what we believe, when in reality -- I think -- , they are not willing to do some basic reading before coming in to request/demand a justification on our part.

Such is the danger of having a Q&A forum on the Internet. It is only normal for peopl to think, "Why read a book when I can just ask a question and have someone give me the answer?"

Same thing happens over on EWTN's site. There are times when the moderator will just say, "Please check out the FAQs," or "Please see the question that I just answered."

The other problem with an Internet site is that all of the answers to the questions being asked are not neccessarily going to be correct.

Like it or not, bycath.org is a clearing house of information on the Eastern Churches. As such people will continue to ask the same questions over and over again.

Annoying? Maybe, but don't expect a change in the near future.

<<I am looking at Catholicism and Orthodoxy to see which is the true church. My difficulties with Orthodoxy would be that they have no central unity, can't seem to hold an ecumenical council, have no universal teaching on things like organ donation, and has nobody that *really* speaks for Orthodoxy. But this is background and not the major thrust of this post.>>

From the Orthodox viewpoint, such things as organ donation and even contraception are PASTORAL and not dogmatic issues, about which different pious Orthodox might well have differing convictions, at least at the present time.

However, if we trust the leading of the Holy Spirit, He will surely, if slowly, bring us to unity of mind and consensus regarding such pressing and vexing topics.

If I have misjudged Erik or others who are truly seeking an alternative pathway to God, then I apologize.

My concern flows from the fact that Erik's first post begins: "I am looking at Catholicism and Orthodoxy to see which is the true church." I interpreted this as meaning: "I'm looking for a Church community." No problem.

But in later posts (on Forum 4), Erik submits very lengthy texts, peppered with quotes from many Popes and Church Fathers and theologians in defense of the 'mediatrix' and 'co-redeemer' proposal. Finally, a reference to the website 'defendingthefaith.com' led me directly to the conclusion that these posts are less about seeking and more about apologetics.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with apologetics, I think it is unkind to eke out one's RC apologetics among Byzantine Catholics and our Orthodox guests in this forum.

There are very many opportunities for 'having a rumble!' (as the defendingthefaith.com board expresses it), but I don't think it is appropriate for here. Byzcath is, to my knowledge, the only opportunity for Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics/Orthodox to come together in fraternity and familial discussions. Though we have discussed-- and argued -- a lot of theological and liturgical issues, we've also spent time bestowing mildly outrageous titles, inquired about customs and practices, and yes, even exchanged recipes and effective methods for having children mount paper icons on foamcore.

This in no way means that non-Easterns are unwelcome. Quite the contrary. But using the Forum as an apologetics battleground does, in my opinion, a real disservice to the hundreds of folks who come here to chat and exchange ideas.

I am speaking for myself. I will, however, contact the Administrator to get his direction on the apologetics issue.

Blessings!

Excellent post. Thank you for the clarification.

Columcille

Dr. John,

Yes, I was misunderstood, but it was easy for you to do as I am very intense (and often misunderstood) and communications via web board or e-mail often lead to misunderstandings. No problemo - you're forgiven. I'm sure I raised some people's ire - please forgive me as well.

From forum 4 you said:
"I think it is natural for Latins to discuss with Eastern Christians about the role of the Mother of God, just as it is natural for Latins to discuss with Eastern Christians about the Holy Mysteries. These unite us."

Not when the Latin proposals apparently lead to heresy. Interaction: fine. Propostions that are anti-thetical to the Scriptures and Creeds: NO!

Unless and until there is a coherent theolgy of 'co-redeemer', we Easterns have NO obligation to even address the issue. And unless and until our good bishops propose that we address it, then the answer is: "Thanks for the idea, but no thanks." and close the door behind you when you leave.

Have a good life.

I think that sounds wonderful. Is this pretty much what most of the Eastern Catholics teach? I hope so.

But in later posts (on Forum 4), Erik submits very lengthy texts, peppered with quotes from many Popes and Church Fathers and theologians in defense of the 'mediatrix' and 'co-redeemer' proposal.

Sorry they were so lengthy. Not being Byzantine Catholic myself and seeing what I thought was Byz-Cath folk not believing in these things (again as taught by those Popes, etc.) then I presented all that stuff in order to ask: do you folks beleive this? Here (in painstaking detail) is what Catholic Popes have taught on the subject.
Although I can really see how it looked that way, I wasn't demanding you defend yourself.
I was really asking for an explanation of how it's legit for you not to believe these doctrines (again as taught by these Popes) in light of the fact these Popes have made these statements. I was hoping to hear an explanation that sounded believable. *I* certainly do NOT believe what those Popes taught on the subject. But I couldn't be Byzantine Catholic and be a "cafeteria" Catholic - to personally disagree with these teachings while the Byzantine CAtholics and my Bishop taught differently - it would be better to not become Byzantine Catholic than to do this.

I am very intense always, and even more so right now as I have been trying to decide between Orthodox & Catholic churches (the only real choices for the true church) for about 2 years now. My difficulty with Catholicism is its teachings on merits and the things that flow from it - and especially the Mediatrix of All graces & Co-redemptrix(as taught the way I outlined). These are some of THE reasons I'm not Catholic.

I didn't mean to appear to be looking for a fight by presenting that much material from EWTN's site.

If I thought your reasons/arguments for why one could be Catholic and not believe these things (again - as taught the way I outlined - I realize there is an orthodox way to see them) were convincing then perhaps I could think about being Byzantine Catholic.

I guess I was hoping to be convinced that one could be Catholic and not believe these things as these are the things that keep me from being Catholic (co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all graces, Papal Infallibility as defined in Vatican I, merits, indulgences -- you know, the things that the Orthodox find objectionable).

I thought that by posting this up front:
"This is NOT an attack - I am seeking... and open to correction or other opinion." that I could avoid the appearance of wanting to start a fight, but that obviously didn't work.

If you feel badly because I was misjudged then please don't as it was easy to happen.
You don't know me personally, and many others have mistaken my intensity for aggression, too.

[This message has been edited by Eric, the Inquirer (edited 07-07-2001).]

Eric,
I feel that the time has come when you should consider allowing the Father to speak to you. At the moment I feel you are constantly asking and pushing, which is understandable when you have a problem.

However if you give Him a chance He will let you know where He feels you should make your journey. But you must allow Him to speak to you. These decisions are not easy to make - mine took many many years in the formation.

I wonder if the attached prayer will help - I found it in a book by Mark Link SJ called "YOU Prayer for the beginner or those who have forgotten how " My copy has now disintegrated with use - just a pile of separate pages and it is, sadly out of print.

O Lord my God
teach my heart where and how to seek you
where and how to find you ........

O Lord,
your are my God
and you are my Lord,
and I have never seen you.
You have made me and remade me,
and you have bestowed on me
all the good things I possess,
and still I do not know you ....
I have not yet done that
for which I was made .....

Teach me to seek you ....
for I cannot seek you
unless you teach me
or find you
unless you show yourself to me.

Let me seek you in my desire,
let me desire you in my seeking
Let me find you by loving you,
let me love you when I find you.

Proslogion of Anselm of Caterbury

May Our Lady keep you in her care whilst you discern where you should go.

Dear friends,

I really don't like it when things get too personal on this forum. Perhaps we could have a cooling off here for a while?

Meanwhile, Erik, please see my reply to your question on "merits and indulgences" and think about what I said there. Perhaps that would be a better place to continue your process of discernment than on this thread which seems to have outlived its usefulness.

In Christ
Fr Maximos

Dear Our Lady's Slave of Love, thank you so much for sharing that prayer. It is indeed a beautiful one.

I also thank Eric (sorry for misspelling your name) for the post.

I once again offer my apology for having landed on you with both boots. Like you (as you have stated) I can get very intense in my endeavors to be both a seeker and a good member of my Church. And it can be seen as judgemental and typified by anger.

The methodology of 'apologetics', primarily finding and using documentary evidence from reputable sources, is a very common approach to defending the faith in the Western European (especially English and German) churches. It grew and flourished hand in hand with the development of catechisms and other educational devices that were meant to ensure the orthodoxy of the faithful.

In the East, with very few exceptions, this approach never took hold. Since many of our churches were living with active persecution, we developed our liturgical celebrations and texts in order to reinforce the basic tenets of the faith. We've never had Sunday Schools since our general mindset is that praying the liturgy (and offices) will teach everything that one needs to know. And faithful learning of the services is an important element of our education.

Thus, when the apologetic method is presented to us in the East, it is perceived as unusual and a radical departure from 'our way'. It is for this reason that I got hot under the collar. In trying to follow the precepts of the Council, I am working towards 'rediscovering' and 'reinstituting' our (and my) legitimate heritage.

Silly as it sounds, I look at this forum as kind of a 'parish family'; we've got all sorts of incredibly wonderful folks who both lurk and post here frequently. And though we debate and sometimes argue, we generally resolve issues and end up apologizing when anger overcomes us. Despite "Catholic-Orthodox-Oriental" perspectives, there is a type of "warm fuzzies" that is found here, and I think that this is what draws several hundred hits a day.

Personally (with apologies to Br. Maximos for being personal) I would hope that you can find a good priest -- Catholic or Orthodox -- who can take your hand and walk with you through the mysteries of the Eastern approach to the faith without relying too heavily upon proof-texting. I absolutely believe that if you immerse yourself in our style of prayer and in the (sometimes) lunatic interactions of our parish communities, you will come to appreciate the real nature of the Eastern Church. If you find grace and comfort: great! Welcome. If you find that the Eastern approach is too "grey" and indistinct, then I pray that you find a spiritual home that will respond to your needs.

Blessings!

>>The methodology of 'apologetics', primarily finding and using documentary evidence from reputable sources, is a very common approach to defending the faith in the Western European (especially English and German) churches. It grew and flourished hand in hand with the development of catechisms and other educational devices that were meant to ensure the orthodoxy of the faithful.<<

<<In the East, with very few exceptions, this approach never took hold. Since many of our churches were living with active persecution, we developed our liturgical celebrations and texts in order to reinforce the basic tenets of the faith. We've never had Sunday Schools since our general mindset is that praying the liturgy (and offices) will teach everything that one needs to know. And faithful learning of the services is an important element of our education.<<

When I was "a youngin'," and determined to become a fanatical "defender of Orthodoxy," I asked our family priest for "a good book on Orthodox apologetics": He handed me his threadbare prayer book!

God! He was brilliant and Orthodox in the purest, truest Christo-centric sense; just like a saint. He, his wife, and his children suffered a great deal for their devotion to the Lover of Mankind, and that victorious suffering is the living "apologia" for our life in Christ.

For what it is worth: I hope all young Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox will make the prayer book, and its LIFE CHANGING Kontakion and Troparion, the catechism of our life in Christ.

b.