www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is Christianity a White Man's Religion?

Michael_Thoma
He s great, and I strongly suspect that he is being groomed for a cardinalate see, perhaps even as George's successor, or maybe even to replace a certain Cardinal that we all know but whose name may not be spoken.

This is one of the most interesting discussions I have seen on the forum before. The point of the comments here seems to be that Religion should be able to reflect the parts of ones culture which are truly virtuous and uniquely their own. That is absolutely right. This is one of the reasons why I have been so interested in the Eastern Churches. I have never related to "rigid anglo saxon mannerisms". I do feel that Eastern Orthodox Catholic Churches have done a better job in allowing new cultures to fuse with Christianity without a process of cultural westernization. However there are notable exceptions, and as we can see the Roman Catholic Church in Africa, China and India is growing faster than it is in the USA. The Roman Catholic Church would not likely have grown as fast in these nations if it was not willing to make many compromises to fuse the beneficial native traditions into Roman Catholicism. I think it can still make improvements adding native culture to itself, but it has not done badly. At the very least it's school system has been a big reason why it has succeeded, something that the few of the protestant, Orthodox or Eastern Catholics can offer as successfully at this time (to my dismay).

As for the Roman Catholic position on slavery:
I paste from this article: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/128/53.0.html

Pope Paul III (1534 to 1549) :

[Satan,] the enemy of the human race, who always opposes all good men so that the race may perish, has thought up a way, unheard of before now, by which he might impede the saving word of God from being preached to the nations. He has stirred up some of his allies who, desiring to satisfy their own avarice, are presuming to assert far and wide that the Indians of the West and the South who have come to our notice in these times be reduced to our service like brute animals, under the pretext that they are lacking in the Catholic faith. And they reduce them to slavery, treating them with afflictions they would scarcely use with brute animals.
Therefore, We . . . noting that the Indians themselves indeed are true men . . . by our Apostolic Authority decree and declare by these present letters that the same Indians and all other peoples�eventhough they are outside the faith . . . should not be deprived of their liberty or their other possessions . . . and are not to be reduced to slavery, and that whatever happens to the contrary is to be considered null and void. (My italics)

On April 22, 1639, Pope Urban VIII (1623 to 1644), at the request of the Jesuits of Paraguay, issued a bull Commissum nobis reaffirming the ruling by "our predecessor Paul III" that those who reduced others to slavery were subject to excommunication.

Many portuguese, spanish and french ignored these bulls. Just as today the Guatemalan military assassinates Bishops who ask the government to apologize for murdering en masse it's Mayan citizens. This makes a good case that the Pope and other hierarchs' power is not as great as some people believe it to be.

"Infact, I would go even further in saying that the ONLY group of people that Hollywood will not discriminate or penalize for talking about their Christian faith on the open air waves are Blacks.
I have seen this over and over again--and I praise God that someone is allowed to glorify Him publicly!

Alice" <--I don't see that they are the only group. If they are not criticised as much it is because they don't seem as wealthy, corrupt, political and powerful as the lighter shaded people of faith backing Pat Robertson, Falwell or Dobson. Although bishop T.D. Jakes is giving them a run for their money with his expensive airplanes and anti-trinitarianism. Perhaps I dont pay enough attention to "Hollywood" to know what goes on though..I am stuck in the past in many ways. Hollywood is a multifaceted industry filled with many different types of people. I find there is often cultural divisions between those on the business side and those on the artistic side.

LogosTeen was right that black consciousness is cultural. However who can say which parts of ones culture are not validly compatible with christian liturgies?

FrDeaconEd was right

"Race does not exist. Racism does exist." Charles Keyes, Anthropologist, University of Washington, 1996

Abouna Serge,

Bless, Father

Imani Temple is the parish of which you're speaking. A glance at [b] its website [imaniaacc.org] will show that the former Father George Stallings (now Patriarch and Archbishop) and the AACC (African American Catholic Congregations) have veered relatively far afield from Catholic doctrine at this point.

There is an Ethiopian Catholic parish (Kidane Meheret) in Washington, DC - I seem to recollect that another had been established elsewhere (? LA), but I'm blanking at the moment. There are, however, a significant number of Ethiopian Orthodox parishes throughout the US. The Ethiopian churches are very welcoming but I have heard comments from a couple of Black American friends that they felt culturally out-of-place there. An Ethiopian Orthodox co-worker told me that she had also noticed this when Black Americans visited to worship and that White Catholic and Orthodox visitors seemed more at ease. Whether the former reflects cultural differences between North African and sub-Saharan Blacks, I'm uncertain.

Many years,

Neil

I wonder if this has to do with expectations? I went to highschool with a significant Black American population, and a significant Ethiopian/Eritrean (for these purposes they were the same) population, and to say that relations between the two groups was marked by tensions is an understatement. The Ethiopian/Eritreans were comfortable with both Blacks and Whites, but the Black Americans were often quite hostile to the Ethiopians/Eritreans, with a general sentiment that they "weren't really Africans". There was one particular incident where the Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Somalians organized an "African Students" group that was violently disrupted by Black American students. I noticed the same dynamic between West Africans (Nigeria, Ivory Coast) and Black Americans, though to a lesser extent because there were fewer West Africans in the general population, and didn't have the critical mass necessary to form a clearly identifiable community (most hung out with predominantly White groups of friends).

Perhaps your friend's observation is based on a similar issue. When people of non-African descent visit an African Orthodox Liturgy, they may not have the same pre-conceived ideas about African identity, nor would they have any particular vested interest in preserving the ideas they do have. Since non-Africans don't have any expectation of identifying with the culture they're visiting, they feel less pressure and are more at ease. If one were to go in expecting to "see your roots" on some level, and realize you were completely out of your element, it might make you more uncomfortable than you would be otherwise.

Just my thoughts!

Peace and God bless!

My,My,My!
Christianity a White man's religion? I must be practicing the wrong religion, then.LOL
being a Metis, what should I practice?
when my first White ancestors came here from Holland to what the English call New York in 1639,they were Dutch Reformed. my ultra great grandpappy Jan Snedeker started off as a Lutheran from the German Duchy of Oldenburg. he emigrated to Holland, went Reformed and came to America. some years later, Petrus Stuyvesant (old Pegleg himself)sent him to Queens where he was to be a founding elder of the first Reformed church in that borough.
a couple of centuries later David Brainerd and his disciples (I guess you can call them that) began preaching the Gospel to Native Americans. Shinnecock Nation converted en masse almost to a person. my line of Snedekers married Shinnecock women and my Grandpa was born a Presbyterian, like most Shinnecocks. to this day, most Shinnecocks are Presbyterian Christians, and one look at them now would hardly cause anyone to think them as White. it is true that Shinnecocks had to put up with Yankee (English) crap from New Englanders who settled in their area, and despite the fact that these Yankees were Christians(Congregationalists), they did not toss a hissy fit and abandon Christianity. it is also true that Native Christians (as well as Native traditionalists) put up with White racism from those who called themselves Christians, but they did not see Christianity as a White man's religion.thought I would mention the Native American experience, as the focus seemed to be on African peoples.
now, if Christianity is a White man's religion, then I suggest that White people begin to practice their religion, God knows they need to.
Much Love,
Jonn

Jonn

That latest statement of your's wouldn't have sounded so offensive, if you had included all races in it, instead of singling out just one. I could just as easily say American Indians should start practicing the faith, because God knows they need it.

read the last statement again: I said IF Christianity is a White man's relgion.to the exclusion of oother races, IF Christianity was only meant for Whites. BTW, sad but true, but too many Christians do not practice their faith, but history shaows that there were so called Christians amongst the Whites that conveniently set their religion aside when for example. there was a Major Chivington, s soi disant Methodist preacher that orchestrated the Sand Creek Massacre (you never heard of Natives setting their Christianity aside to murder Whites), and we can always bring up such pleasantries as Auschwitz, again, by a nation that prided itself on producing the Gutenberg Bible, and so much of Christian thought. but what would be the point?then we have the issue of the enslaving of Africans. it was nice to share Christ with them while they were in chains in America, but wouldn't it have been better to go to Africa and share the Gospel with them in their own context?so, why do you think that so many nonWhite people have the opinion that Christianity is a White man's religion? perhaps they believed that it was only good for Whites, and it seemed to exclude everyone else when it came to the practice thereof.
Much Love,
Jonn

Sorry Jonn, but I already said the claim that Christianity is a white man's religion was silly. I could also produce a litany of atrocities and barbaric behaviour committed by American Indians, but I have no desire to play "My race good, your race bad".

Irish Melkite! It is so good to hear from you here. I've resisted commenting for days now, but I couldn't have done a better job than you or Jonn Nightwatcher for that matter.You found the proof to back up things that are common knowledge in the Black community.

I'd only add that there needs to be an understanding of some of the negative trends in the Black community concerning Christianity to understand why he reacted the way he did. (It would take too long to post here)As a Muslim,Malcom X was admirable. Check out his autobiography or rent the movie X.You'll see that he wasn't a hatemonger and moved to a very peaceful productive position by the time he was assassinated.

Also, Islam continues to be of interest to poor urban black males particularly because it is a very structured religion with an emphasis on R-E-S-P-E-C-T. (Other than women and money rappers talke about respect.major topic) Urban areas with a large Black Muslim population tend to have a very positive influence on the neighborhood and inspire admiration.

I am a Christian, yet I well understand why some in minority communities do not take well to Christianity. (Nor do I believe that all other religions and Christian groups are the devil)I'm sure if there was a strong demonstration of Christian respect and structure made in the urban areas it might make a difference.

As for Black discomfort in Orthodox churches it must be remembered that the majority of blacks from the US-not Carribean or African- are either Baptist or Methodist. Catholicism is deeply misunderstood and there is a strong bias against it,especially in the South.And most Black americans ultimately come from the south.Now, if Catholic practices are viewed as mysterious,and unnecessary (who's going to answer to a Pope after having to answer to masters?!)An Orthodox service looks like Catholicism on steroids!

I hope this is enlightening and doesn't set anybody off. My purpose is not to attack.

Peace,
Indigo

PS Come back Irish Melkite,come back.

Well, not when the Mass is done properly! :p

Logos Teen

Teen, let me rephrase that. In the eyes of Blacks from the background described Catholic Mass is strange enough no matter how it's done. In comparison, an Orthodox or even a Byzcath service is going to be doubly strange.

Peace,
Indigo

That young 'black' men and women turn to Islam to find what they should see as being in Christianity is I suppose our fault.

Australian Aboriginal people are just discovering Islam and there have been small numbers who are seen a leaders of their people either as sports persons of note, or community leaders have converted.

It is easy to blame Islam but I suspect this reflects our failure to present Christ as the one and only true liberator. Churches have not done enough to make ammends in regard to their involvement as collaborators in oppressing 'the natives' they encountered here in Australia and New Zealand and other places close by.

This may very well be true in North America. I am pleased the Ethiopian Orthodox are in the area to pick up those who might have gone to Islam if they were not around.

I suspect it is safe to say we have failed the Christ and distored His message we have presented to the downtrodden.

Cynthia, my sister and friend,

So very nice to see you posting and thank you for the kind words.

Many years,

Neil

A pleasure as always, Neil.
Pavel, I don't think the situtation is lost but it does mean we as Christians need to really walk the talk.
Another thought. More urban men than women are interested in Islam, but the women that are interested on their own are deepy drawn to modesty. Some of them are tired of being considered sex objects by men, the media,and others who buy into the stereotype of Black women being sexually immoral.A few have led immodest lives and they have a strong need to overcome shame and regret.They are able to recover self-respect and dignity through Islam.

Mind you,Jehovah's Witnesses proslytize in urban areas and are pretty modest, but they're usually (certainly not always)older women who haven't had a man in their lives in years, and wear modest but unattractive clothes. What young woman wants to aspire to that vision of modesty?!For women with jaded pasts they encounter Christians telling them they're sinners and condemned until they change.Then they're constantly reminded of how far they fell. Apparently, they feel that Islam gives them a second chance and doesn't throw their previous lives in their faces.They're treated as equal to the pious virgin simply because they are now Muslim women.

It isn't rampant but I've read a few testimonials of urban Latinos who've converted to Islam.It wouldn't surprise me if that number increases in the future since many are leaving Catholicism in droves and some will eventually fall out with the evangelicals. There are other issues with Latinos that I won't even pretend to understand or know fully. This is not to say that all is perfect in their Islamic havens,either. No place is.

Pavel, yes, as Christians we have failed some of the very people Christ would probably live among if he were here today.But, it is not too late.The answer, in part, is to find out what is most needed by a people-in this case dignity,respect,structure,modesty- and demonstrate that Christianity offers those qualities too, by acknowledging and facing our own sterotypes,feelings of superiority,etc.(and middle class blacks also have stereotypes about urban blacks too),avoid the guilt complex thing by forgiving -not excusing-ourselves (otherwise people pretend they aren't prejudiced,go in denial and end up behaving in in some weird,destuctive ways),and give people that cold drink of water they need most in the form they most desire(respect and dignity).It is that simple.

I've watched people who weren't consciously practicing Christianity approach some of the meanest,roughest,wildest looking hoods and women with digity and respect and the guys relaxed,and smiled and the women noticeably softened and made an effort to not curse.The gang members have told their guys not to touch these people or their property,and they don't.

Now, if someone who isn't a conscious Christian can do this, what of aware practicing Christians? What's more, an aware Christian would probably be able to reach the psychos that even the non-aware have little influence on.It can be done,Pavel. Through prayer.
Peace,
Indigo

With respect to Indigo's comments,

New Orleans was a notable exception. A large minority (if not majority) of African-Americans in that city were visibly and openly practicing Catholics, many from Catholic ancestry.