www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why do we kneel at Pentecost?

Dave, I think quite a few parishes follow the practice of Liturgy, dinner, and then Vespers w/kneeling prayers.

I think it is interesting that in the Great Book of Needs it indicates that the priest can face the faithful for the kneeling prayers but indicates that the older practice is for the priest to face east, as at the prayers of light. I don't think I have ever seen a priest face the people for the kneeling prayers. Anyone else have comments on the direction the priest is kneeling when he reads the kneeling prayers?

Dear Friends,

I'm still not sure of the reason why we kneel specifically for the prayers to the Holy Spirit.

Our Eastern Churches aren't great for "kneeling" during the liturgy - we prefer to stand, especially on Sundays. The kneeling my church has is really a Latinization.

My own view is that kneeling is a way of expressing great desire in prayer and preparedness for the actual reception of a great Gift - the Holy Spirit.

I'm also wondering if, in former zealous times, people knelt to avoid hurting themselves as a resut of being overwhelmed by the experience of the Gift of the Spirit at Pentecost?

Alex

Dear Dave,

It uplifts me greatly to hear that such an appropriate model for Kneeling Vespers is not only implemented, but also well-attended. May God bless all of the faithful at Holy Trinity Church!

The pictures were beautiful.

And may you find yourself someday in the perfect serenity of the Ossios David Monastery!

In Christ,
Andrew

Alex: the three kneeling prayers are not addressed to the Holy Spirit, but to Christ. (I just found out last week that there is a fourth kneeling prayer addressed to the Holy Spirit used in the Old Rite, but that's neither here nor there.) So it's not really that we are kneeling for prayers to the Holy Spirit, but that the prayers for the reinstatement of kneeling, suppressed for 50 days, are addressed to Christ.

Diak, you raise a good point about the direction of the prayers. This was a recent topic on another internet list. Some individuals suggested that these prayers are read facing the people in the Greek and (the post-Nikonian) Russian traditions so that the prayers will be heard by all. I just find it odd, considering that we are an oriented church; they are addressed to Christ, not the people, so face Him! That's just my opinion, and what I would do, but if a priest reads them facing the people (as my priest did) it doesn't really bother me. Greater things to worry about in my life.

S'Bohom.

Dave

Dear Dave,

Yes, the text of those beautiful prayers is well-known to me!

They are still prayers "for the Gift of the Holy Spirit" and are to Christ Who is the One who sends us the Holy Spirit.

I STILL (forgive me for making this an issue) don't understand the kneeling thing - our Churches don't usually make kneeling a part of their liturgical practice, except during Lent.

And why is it that priests, in my church anyway, kneel when, during Pentecost week, they recite the prayer to the Holy Spirit "O heavenly King?"

Alex

If I remember correctly (didn't make it this year) in my Church the priest faces east for this. But it would make some sense to face the congregation since Christ promised that when 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name He will be there. So in a sense Christ is present among us through the congregation, and so during the prayer of the Psalms the priest faces the congregation since that is how Christ is present to us at that point in the Liturgy.

Kneeling is always part of the Liturgy. There are several parts where you kneel, in every tradition I've ever heard of. Sundays and the season of Pentecost, as well as other Major Feasts are exceptions when we do not kneel in rememberence of the Ressurection. But outside Pentecost on a weekday, there should be kneeling in the Liturgy.

Dear CopticOrthodox,

I'm not familiar with the tradition of liturgical kneeling throughout the year on weekdays in the Oriental Churches, forgive me.

But my Eastern parish does not kneel at all, not on Sundays and not on weekdays. The former pastor there made it a point to explain to us the significance of standing. There is kneeling during Lent, however.

So what is the theological significance of kneeling during the liturgy if kneeling is primarily an act of penitence?

And during the prayers invoking the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

Alex

"I think it is interesting that in the Great Book of Needs it indicates that the priest can face the faithful for the kneeling prayers but indicates that the older practice is for the priest to face east, as at the prayers of light. I don't think I have ever seen a priest face the people for the kneeling prayers. Anyone else have comments on the direction the priest is kneeling when he reads the kneeling prayers?"

Dear Diak - the Old Rite practice is for the priest to face the people.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Does anyone of the Old Rite know why we kneel for those prayers too?

Alex

During the Kneeling Prayers in my OCA church, my young 29-year-old Russian-born priest from Tula recited these prayers facing the people. His now-retired elderly American-born predecessor recited these same prayers facing East. So, in this particular "Russian Orthodox" OCA parish, we've had it both ways!

In my two previous OCA parishes, the priest recited the Kneeling Prayers facing the people--always.

OrthodoxEast

We kneel (prostration, head to ground) during the absolutions, in worship when the bread & wine are turned into the Body and Blood, etc, about 6 times in total. Do all EO/EC not have this practice, I'd always thought all Eastern Christians kneeled except at the times forbidden by Nicea?

Outside of the Liturgy some people also do a certain number of prostrations assigned by their Father of Confession, and in Prime there's "O come let us worship, O come let us ask Christ our [God/King/Saviour] 3x where we keel each time.

We kneel before God to bow our spirits, to humble ourselves, to submit ourselves to God, and to worship our King.

That's interesting, Father Mark, because in the notes in the Trebnik it states that facing the people is the more recent practice.

I wonder if the priest facing east is an older particular Kyivan practice, considering many of the notes in the Slavonic Trebnik came from Mohylian texts which were themselves some of the last widely distributed pre-Nikonian Trebnik texts in Kyivan lands. The Nikonian revisions occurred not long after St. Peter Moghila's death (1647).

Egad, Alex, we've never answered the question...

I think rather than deep theological reasons it was the liturgical means of ending the prohibition on kneeling from Pascha. As Tertullian records it was "unlawful to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord's day [Sunday]; we enjoy the same liberty from Easter day to that of Pentecost."

This became law at the Council of Nicea a few years later in Canon 20: "Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing."

I am not sure with the practice of kneeling for Pentecost that symbolic or allegorical connotations can be made that most liturgical actions can be derived from, but rather the liturgical "reaction" to the end of standing for Liturgy. Also since the prayers are supplicatory in nature, this may also have influenced a posture of kneeling.

Other explanations I have heard such like since the Spirit came down upon the Apostles, we need to receive "down" on bent knees, etc., are rather ambiguous and weak.

Dear Diak,

I've missed out a word in my post. It's meant to say that the priest faces WITH the people - that is he faces the prestol, praying for the people, but also as one of them. You are absolutely correct.

As for the questions about kneeling - we shouldn't forget that liturgically, vespers belongs to Monday, the day of the Holy Spirit. I know there are all sorts of ideas about points of transition when kneelings and prostrations return during vespers, but imagine these are probably later than the Jewish reckoning starting the day at sunset.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.