www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why do we kneel at Pentecost?

Dear Friends,

Why do we?

Alex

We resume kneeling on Pentecost Monday (the prayers of kneeling are read during Vespers, after the Great Prokeimenon) since the great Fifty Days are over and we go back to "things as usual."

We technically don't kneel on Pentecost itself since, a) Pentecost is a Sunday and we technically don't kneel on Sundays and b) it is the Fiftieth Day of and the Eighth Sunday of the Passover.

Dave

Dear Dave,

Is your patron King David? If so, I've posted an Akathist to him on "Faith and Worship."

But our parishes do the kneeling prayers on Sunday after the liturgy.

And then each time the prayer, Heavenly King, is recited, the priest kneels.

Are they doing wrong?

And for how long are the kneeling prayers said?

Alex

I'll be you're doing the same thing we do... On Pentecost there is no kneeling since it's a feast & a Sunday. Monday is the first day for kneeling, and we kneel as soon as we can after missing it for 50 days, so the kneeling service is on the Eve of Monday, ie Sunday night. But in areas where people work a lot & travel far & just wouldn't come back after the long service for Pentecost that morning, we cheat a little do the kneeling service a few hours earlier than what would be ideal... usually around 1:00, which can really in no way be considered the Eve of Monday, but it's better than losing the service all together.

Hi Alex,

My patron is actually Saint David the Stylite of Thessalonica, whose feast (on the New Calendar) is this Thursday, June 26. I saw the akathist though, and it looks cool!

A common parish practice is to either do the Vespers for Pentecost Monday immediately after the Divine Liturgy, or just take the three Kneeling Prayers before the Dismissal of the Divine Liturgy.

I am in no place to say what is right and what is wrong for a parish. The "ideal" one could say would be to have Vespers with the three Kneeling Prayers at the time of sunset, but to say that the many, many parishes that have the Kneeling Prayers at the conclusion of Liturgy are "wrong" might be a bit harsh. I definately wouldn't say it.

Dave

Dear Dave,

You are truly blessed to have "Ossios David" as your patron! Many years to you.

My wife and I were taken by her Godmother to the tiny monastery of Ossios David in Thessaloniki. It is the most serene of places in the midst of a great metropolis! I cannot explain the peace that we found there other than to say that it was truly of God. I highly recommend a visit there!

In Christ,
Andrew

Regarding the post-Pentecostal kneeling prayers:

A compromise which helps preserve both the Vespers in which the kneeling prayers are supposed to occur and the festal nature of the Holy Pentecost, while recognizing difficulties of travel and transport, would be something like this:

Divine Liturgy ending at appoximately noon.

Feastal Pentecostal dinner from noon until 2:00 or 3:00 PM.

Reconvene the assembly for the Vespers with the kneeling prayers at 3:00 PM.


This is not a perfect compromise, but it heads in the right direction, or so I contend.

At the same time, I can't adamantly oppose kneeling prayers and/or vespers immediately following the Divine Liturgy. According to the rubrics, the Vespers of the Presanctified Liturgy may start at 3:00 PM or as early as noon. This of course is in the context of lenten pre-eucharistic fasting and not immediately following a great feast day.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

I've had two friends of mine visit Osios David in Thessaloniki, and I hope to visit one day as well!

Your compromise is pretty much what my parish did this year. Being that Pentecost is our parish feastday we had Divine Liturgy, a festal outdoor Procession, our annual parish BBQ starting about noon (with the parish reader aka me getting into a major water balloon fight with some of the kids) and (after a quick change into dry clothes for me) Vespers at 2:30, give or take a few minutes. We had 97 people for Liturgy, 50+ for the picnic and 35 for Vespers. We truly had a parish feast!

A few photos are on our website: http://htc.faithweb.com/pentecost

Dave

I am confused

I am not sure of the reason for the kneeling. Could someone explain this to me?

Michael

From the Feast of the Ressurection (Easter) to the Feast of Pentecost is the Holy 50 days/the Pentecost seacon/the Easter Season. During this time we do not kneen in rememberence of the Ressurection. At the end of the 50 day period, it's legal to kneel again, so we have a service of kneeling to make up for the 50 days when we weren't kneeling. The priest prays litanies, and the congregation replied "lord have mercy" while doing prostrations.

Thanks C-O, that makes sense to me.

Michael

Wow, a OCA church that uses Greek-style vestments!
I would be interested to know what style of liturgical singing Holy Trinty uses? Great Russian ,Carpathian Prostopinije, Galician Prostopinije or a mixture??

Shchastlivyj Zelenie Nedilju!
Ung-Certez

CIX!

Greek-style vestments are becoming "vogue" among some circles of the OCA; Holy Trinity has been wearing them exclusively for as long as I can remember. It comes as a shock to many. The congregation has only been around for about 27 years now, and I believe the founding priest began using Greek-style vestments and it just stuck.

The music is mostly your typical OCA/Great Russian chant with an occasional piece from another tradition. When there is no choir and I have to sing a service (a daily Matins or Vespers, for example), I like to incorporate as much prostopinije as I can (personal preference). However, if I have other people singing with me, I generally use Russian tones so they can sing as well.

Dave

In my former parish (OCA), the priest had both Greek-style "low-back" as well as Russian-style "high-back" phelonia. The green set for Pentecost was "low-back." And this priest was born in Moscow!

And as far as music and language: Byzantine, Galician, Obikhod, Bulgarian, Carpatho-Russian and Serbian chant could be heard (as well as the liturgical compositions of Bortniansky, Tchaikovsky and other Russian masters), amidst (primarily) English, Slavonic and Greek for liturgical languages.

OrthodoxEast

It is good to hear that "some" OCA parishes still use the Prostopinije chant (Subcarpathian or Galician) of their indeginous founders. I wish more OCA churches would rediscover their "South-West Rus' liturgical tradition. I'm always amazed how a Church whose founders were 95% non-Great Russians have been lost their indigenous plainchant tradition and that's a shame.

Ung-Certez