www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Icon Veneration: BCC vs OCA

Ed, as far as I know, this only reflects the modern differences between the Carpatho-Rusyn and Great Russian usages, whether Orthodox or Byzantine Catholc. Our new OCA parish priest recently went into considerable detail in our Sunday bulletin as to when we are to do "waist-reverences" and "full reverences" (i.e., poklony "to the ground"). He referred to the Ustav as his guide.

OrthodoxEast

Hmm - I think I know what you mean here - but I don't know the answer to your actual question.

Please bear with me for a wee bit ----

When I was in Lourdes in October last year and was at DL on the second Sunday there were 3 Ukie. Groups also present. In the altar were 4 priests and Fr Wasyl [ yes it was crowded ! I honestly do not know how they were not literally falling over each other ]

One of the young priests did make the Sign of the Cross, and as he bowed deeply his hand swept down to the ground . This was different to tthe other priests who just bowed. I suppose to some extent it is a personal 'thing'

This was the priest who had been hearing confessions before the Liturgy - again very different to Latin Practice - priest and penitent were close together and at the end he placed his stole [ epitrachelion ?] over the penitent's head . I could cope with that much more easily than the normal Latin practice .

I presume that the way that young priest Crossed himself is what you are asking about .

Sorry - really no help at all

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelynna,

This is a somewhat late reply to the klirosy query. As has been said, the klirosy are parts of the Church dedicated to the choir. The placing of the choirs here stresses their place in the ministry of divine worship - a ministry in which they stand at the front of the laity whom they lead in worship.

In many churches there is a physical barrier between the nave and the klirosy. In an Old Rite Orthodox Church this barrier is often quite high -at least head height - and hides the singers.

In such Churches the singers are only seen clearly when the right and left choirs meet in the centre of the Church for chants appointed to be sung in this way. Only those appointed to sing in the choirs or serve in the altar pass beyond the klirosy during divine worship.

In a priestless Old Believers Church the kliros area is used as a sanctuary, since there is no altar area behind the ikonostas, even if it is complete with the usual doors. This makes the klirosy even more solemn, despite the lack of liturgy. It is simply part of the Old Orthodox concept of holy space.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Hey Guys, im a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic, actually my Christmation is April 12. But when i enter the Church, and venerate the icon on the tetripod i make a bow the sign of the cross kiss the icon and bow and make the sign of the cross.

So do all the parishoners of my parish.

From: Daniel
IC-XC

Fr Mark,

Bless Father,

Now that's another bit of education for me - thank you so much.

However one possibly slightly silly question follows on from your explanation :-
If this head height barrier barrier is present - then how do the Faithful in the body of the Church see the action in the Altar ?

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

As in the Mediaeval West when the solid pulpitum stood across the body of monasteries and cathedrals, and the rood screen separated the nave of other Churches from the choir and sanctuary, the Orthodox faithful don't necessarily expect to see any of the action in the altar.

A Mediaeval Russian ikonostas often had quite diminutive doors, so that little would be seen even when the doors were open! It is only after the schism that Baroque ikonostasy gained the great gaping doors that allow one to forget there is a screen at all.

The liturgy is a concelebration centred on action which does not need to be seen. Those standing in the nave share in the celebration of the Liturgy, just as Jews in the Jerusalem temple could be part of temple worship, whichever court they stood in and no matter how many barriers separated them from the rites performed in the Holy Place or the Holy of Holies.

In the Orthodox temple the catechumens and penitents - and in some places the non-Orthodox, may be required to withdraw to the narthex before the deacons petition 'Dvery, dvery - the doors, the doors. Unlike the original dismissal and locking of the doors it allows them to remain part of the liturgy, but at a distance. The narthex may be a seperate chamber, yet they remain incorporated into the liturgy by their presence. They do not need to see anything for this to be true.

We are often used to small Byzantine rite Churches which allow us all some glimpse of what happens in the Holy of Holies. This is simply not possible in large Churches. There is a different expectation of liturgical experience here from that of the West, be it Roman Catholic or Protestant.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Fr Mark,

Bless Father.

Yes what you have said there does make sense. I should have though about that - one of these problems of course from being a recent RC I suppose.

Yes I have seen some of the beautiful Rood Screens in English Churches - you don't get them up here of course] which do date from Monastic times.

Having said that , yes I do realise now what you mean about not seeing any of the action in the Altar - put my comment down to ignorance please.

The only Iconostasis I have seen in 'the flesh' of course is in Lourdes , so I have to comment only on Photographs and what I can see on the Web - not the same thing at all.

Anyway thanks for your clarification.

Anhelyna

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us. Amen.

Dear Anhelyna,

May the All-Merciful Lord bless you!

One of my favourite screens, and Church interiors, is an Anglican one - that in Egmanton in Nottinghamshire.

In the parish Church is the shrine of Our Lady of Egmanton. In Saxon times, the Mother of God appeared to a peasant woman herding pigs in the forest and a spring appeared on the sight. The Church suffered at the hands of the reformers, but, together with the shrine, was restored by the Anglo-Catholic Duke of Newcastlein the 19th century, becoming a centre of 'Catholic' worship in the Church of England.

The Church possesses a fantastic rood screen, which can accomodate not only the Gospeler, but a whole choir. It preserves the setting of of the sarum Rite and is a spiritual oasis.

All of this springs from thoughts of screens!!!

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.