www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How does one find stats?

So, the numbers enrolled are reported. Are these numbers readily available? Are there other kinds of reporting done similar to what I've suggested? Are those reports available?

Dan L

Regarding stats for which Dan is asking, one could consult the Official Catholic Directory, published by P.J. Kennedy & Sons. It might be found in the local public library. The "Kennedy" is published annually and has a price of about $300.00, so it's not likely that this something found in the parish office.

Oy!

At least I'll have much to contribute on Aug. 6. Something so easy and so valuable I just don't understand why this material isn't readily available.

Dan L

Dan, I can easily understand why it is not available.
#1. Who is going to do it? (Man/Womanpower)
#2. Who is going to pay for it? (Finacialpower)
Stephanos I
It is so so easy to sit on the sidelines and then complain when something is not done.

It is among the easiest jobs on earth. Almost anyone can do it. Maybe 30 minutes per week at the local Church of volunteer work if the Priest can't do it and two or three hours at the end of each year. The reports would come to the Chancery office at the end of the year. Maybe one day for entries and compilation and another eight hours of follow up. How many Churches in each eparchy? Maybe 50-75? Come on this is almost nothing. We have people at Annunciation who clock in four or five hours a week volunteering and some a good deal more. Are Churches really in that big of a problem that they can't get someone to put in 30 minuts per week volunteering?

I think we have a problem here. We must have got used to making excuses or something.

Something is wrong here. I'm champing at the bit to get to the Aug. 6th meeting.

Dan L

Stephanos,

I did not know you were clergy. Forgive me if I have been too forward. I really do believe that what I propose is exceedingly simple once one gets in the habit of doing it.

Dan L

Dan,

Reporting numbers can mean a lot of things, not necessarily lying, not necessarily being certain.

Do we really know how many members are in our church? Are we talking about 'on the books' or just those who actually show up on a regular basis (excluding weddings, baptisms, and funerals)?

The most meaningful stats are not how many members we have but how many left (that are still alive and especially living in the neighborhood!) and WHY? If good stats are hard to find, analysis on the WHY of so many departures is almost non-existent. Following up on the WHY might draw attention to the antics of some priests. The mad parishioner, who is just so ignorant, is the reason, not the haughtiness and vainglory attitude of the offending cleric. In one decade I can remember standing room only; in another I witness almost an empty tomb.

If you used the stats in the Catholic Directory over the years, the numbers seemed quite inflated. If your neighbor has a nice car, you have to make your jalopy look better. Bigger is better. This is why we have a cleric wearing many hats on the official chancery office list.

There was a website I posted a year or so ago that was a study on the stats on the various Orthodox jurisdictions. It was a comparison between what they claim from their respective marketing departments and what was actually claimed on the record. A case study in quantum physics.

I disagree with the Administrator. While the recent numbers may be more in line with reality (a deflation in numbers due to 'getting real'), there has been several exoduses of people from the eparchies for various reasons. These reasons have been discussed time and time again on these forums. A scandal can really clear house. A bully bishop can really clear ranks and villages. In one meeting with a bishop, I witnessed a half dozen seminarians become convinced to depart.

There is a fine line between authority and despotism.

Many times, the Latin Catholics who ventured over after Vatican II left at the drop of a hat. Was that a real deflation in numbers or just returning to base stats? Many of our youth left for good - college, marriage, laziness, and lack of reason for remaining a minority Catholic.

How honest is honesty in numbers?

Some parishes are worried that total honesty in numbers might mean getting the boot off the face of the eparchial map. So, members of parish councils remain on the list even though such folks left a long time ago.

Dan, there are NO simple suggestions. As one cleric told me, "Don't confuse us with organized religion." I was in your spot so many times and I got burned thinking that simple communication, followup, answering questions regarding THEIR policies, and honesty was the currency of 'doing business.' But that was where I was wrong. Human nature is so totally different, almost ontologically different, when one leaves the business workshop and enters the hallowed halls of our parish and eparchial offices. The laws of physics DO change. Just don't let gravity hit you on the ...

Joe

Joe,

I do understand. I've seen quite a bit of ecclesiastical politics during my years as a United Methodist Minister. I really doubt that I will be too terribly surprised.

I also realize, as my papa used to say, "figures may not lie but liars do figure." "Membership" stats mean very little alone, but combined with all of my other suggestions the figures can produce alot of leverage. At least it produces a starting point which we lack just now.

From what I've seen from a rather casual glance is that we have probably three times too many Churches than we ought to have. Most of those will die either from lack of attention by clerics or members. Some of the rest will need to be combined or partnered with stronger Churches. Then the Church needs to look at strategic places to plant new Churches.

We need to stop coddeling clergy that really don't wish to be clergy but they can't imagine doing anything else. I know, everyone is just so shocked to hear that. We need to stop blocking the ordination of persons, as we've often done, who are highly qualified. We need to be much more creative in how we train clergy. I suspect that we would have an enormous growth spurt and problem a sustained period of growth if clergy who were no longer creative would retire or go do something else and those who truely are clergy now languishing among the laity were allowed to be clergy.

Dan L

Fear is our major sin. Courage is the major cure.

Dan L

Do you not have a pastor? Have you not asked them about these stats.

They are filed as status animarum reports and are filed every December.

Mary

This is a horrible slap in the face to so many of our clergy and is not a Catholic understanding of the priesthood and no matter how often you remove my comments, they remain true.

Mary

Dan, I would suggest:
www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat05.pdf [cnewa.org]

as a start. (That doesn't really answer your question, since you said "for each parish". Also, it doesn't seem to entirely agree with the http://www.holy-cross.ca/eglisang.html stats.)

Peter,

Thank you. I've seen both of those before but neither addresses much of anything I asked about. I must gather after all this time that such statistics do not exist.

Creation of stats neither necessarily tells the story of what we need nor does such creation mean that we will grow just because we produce them.

However, what stats can do, and I mean the kind of stats I asked for, is give us a baseline from which to work. They can indicate what works and what doesn't. They can indicate where we need to allocate our resources.

And most importantly they are easy to gather once the bishop asks for specifically what he wants.

I will make a strong appeal on Aug. 6 for the creation of such statistic. What is essential includes most if not all I asked for in my initial posts. I'm used to much more complete stats than what I listed but most categories beyond what I listed aren't really very important.

When such things are so important to the health of our Church and so easy to produce it is a crying shame that we haven't been doing this all along.

Let's see what can be done to correct this omission and give ourselves a chance to grow.

Dan L