www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Contemporary Orthodox Deaconesses?

//The begining of the fall of Orthodoxy!
Stephanos I//

Oh please, give me a break.

JoeS

I reiterate it again, the begining and the end of Orthodoxy.
Stephanos I
(No break given)

Can you clarify what you mean by that statement? Thank you.

In Christ,
Anthony

Why is consecrating Deaconesses or celibate women to the service of Christ in the Church considered to be "the beginning of the fall of Orthodoxy"?

Who better than a woman -- like the Theotokos -- to educate children and other women in the Faith?

Jesus Himself, chose women to proclaim the Resurrection! The Samaritan Woman went home to Samaria to proclaim the Christ, Son of God.

Mary and Martha received Jesus in their home!

st. Paul, also had deaconesses to help him in the ministry: ; Thecla, Dorcas, and others.

Just wondering how the downfall of Orthodoxy can stem from this "consecration"

Shestelle

Greetings!

Pray, tell me what is the diference between the role of a deaconess and that of a nun ???

Their is no need for the ministry they did in the history of the Church and it is only attempt to pacify those who are bent on the ordination of women. It will follow like in Protestant denominations and I tell you it will be the end of Orthodoxy all the floodgates of the liberal agenda will come poring forth.
Stephanos I

Naaaa! I think we made out pretty well over the last 2000 or so years. I dont think we will be rearranging the deck chairs very soon. But You continue to keep thinking those "good" thoughts though, and I will not wake you from your slumber.

JoeS

//I reiterate it again, the begining and the end of Orthodoxy.
Stephanos I
(No break given)//

There is an agenda for the ordination of women in the Catholic Church by some groups. This pope put his foot down on that, but some are thinking "just wait til he dies." Some are actively working and planning for women's ordination. It's not a fantasy, but a real threat that needs to be taken seriously. And every bone that has been thrown to these dogs - altar girls, for example - has just made them more voracious and determined.

Ludmilla, in response to your question concerning the "difference between a Deaconess and a Nun"

As far as I understand this, a Nun is consecrated through the religious/monastic vows of Chastity, Poverty, Obedience and this in a monastic/religious community of life; she also owes obedience to Superiors or Spiritual Father or Mother in her private life within the Convent/Monastery.

Whereas, A Deaconess is consecrated by the Church, through a Bishop who consecrates the person for service in the Church, in a Parish or specific ministry, like teaching; and, she owes her obedience to the Bishop, does not necessarily live within a religious/monastic community, but either in her family, in a private home/apartment.
Her consecration implies celibacy, not necessarily Monastic vows. though she is under obedience to a Bishop.

Hope this answers your question, at least a little!
Blessings and Peace, Shestelle

I understand the point, (I think) that Father Stephanos is making.

I also fear that the idea of 'historical' deaconesses is just part of a liberal Orthodox agenda that would ultimately lead to the pushing forward of female ordination. If it were not for these feminist ideas which prevail in the liberal ecclesiastical circles of Christian churches and secular society, or if this was brought up sixty years ago within a different secular mindset in this country, the desire to examine the history of female deaconesses and what their role truly was in the tradition of the Eastern church may have been valid.

Alas, however, this being the year 2004, and with all the 'modern' changes the Anglican church has accomplished, AND knowing certain liberals within my jurisdiction, I have a strong hunch that this may be part of a 'greater' agenda, (along with married bishops), and God only knows what else.

Fortunately, the EP is not stupid, and it does not seem likely that it will be seen anywhere in the near future of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America.

Alice

Her position would more than imply celibacy...she is under threat of excommunication if she marries after being created a deaconness...so, yes, it IS a serious matter. Most women at the age of 40 will not take kindly to being told that their dating life is over. They will surely point out that they are not nuns...

Canon XV.

A Woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination. And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her.

Gaudior, quoting Canon.

Dear Gaudior,

PROFOUND and HEAVY material, those canons!

Oh sure, I can just imagine the ladies of a certain laity group (who are pushing for the reinstatement of deaconesses accepting those ancient terms)...they can't even accept an unmarried Bishopric! LOL!

Blessings!
Alice

Dear Gaudior,
Yes, it is serious matter this "CONSECRATION of Deaconesses". And, as I understand this "call" to this particular service in the Church, it is more a SERVICE of LOVE of God-Trinity and His People... than a threat of excommunication.

Our Service to God is not a service of fear, or threat, but one of Love.

And, I think that you seem to have a low esteem of women in general! Concerning "DATING" it takes two to date. a man and a woman! And, if a woman is either a Virgin or a Widow in the Service of Christ our Lord, I believe that despite the struggles that she may interorly undergo in her Spiritual Life, she deems herself "committed" and "consecrated" that is we to God and to His Body the Church.

The Order of Deaconesses is a much deeper than you imply. One who thus consecrates herself to the Service of god and of the Church does so after much prayer and study. A bishop would not accept a woman in this capacity unless she has shown herself not only willing by truly committed to Christ and to His Church!

so, please do not judge women ingeneral but look upon your soul and its intentions and motives.

Prayers and blessings, Shestelle

p.s. pray for the loving healing and growth of Christ's Mystical Body the Church.

Alice, yes, it is heavy stuff these "canons"

And, if we women would just study and pray over the deeper meaning of the "deaconess" and her ministry of love and dedication in the Church, instead of pushing to become "ordained deaconnesses" perhaps, just perhaps God would have mercy upon us all -- women and men -- and raise up some truly "holy dedicated" people to help restore and rebuild his Church. Just like Saint Francis whom we celebrate today in the Church calendar.

It is quite a challenge to deny one's self completely to carry the cross of Christ in our own particular lives as a witness to His Love for us humans, both men and women, in giving up His life for our salvation.

Shestelle

Stephanus I,

With due respect, why do say that there is "NO NEED" for the ministry of Deaconesses as in the early Church?

If Christ-God does call one woman to this ministry in this time of history who are we to question His Call?

The call to become a Deaconess is not a light one!
And if a whole bevy of woman are calling for this re-instatement of this Order of Deaconesses, why doesn't the Clergy, Bishops and the women involved just sit down to pray and discern this so-called interest in the Order of Deaconesses?

Prayer and blessings to all who are interested enough to enter this discussion with and open mind to the Providential Will of God in today's world.

Let us pray for one another,
Shestelle