www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Contemporary Orthodox Deaconesses?

Dear Tony,

Then are the icons showing St Tatiana in that way indications that she was a Deaconess?

My wife will be very pleased if this is so!

Alex

In what way?

I believe that Alex is referring to icons like this:

[Linked Image]
Saint Tatiana with an orarion

[Linked Image]
Saint Tatiana with a censer

[Linked Image]
Saint Olympiada with a censer

These are modern Russian icons, all from www.ermey.ru. [ermey.ru.] I like them, but I am unsure as to their historical accuracy. I am not sure if deaconesses ever offered incense or wore an orarion in the fashion of a male deacon (I believe it was worn around the neck, with both ends in the front). Regardless, these do represent how some modern Russian iconographers wish to illustrate the point that these women were deaconesses.

Dave

I found this interesting article "The Didascalia Apostolorum" http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/didasc.htm
it does address some of the deaconess role, it appears to be a pro-feminist site, it's worth a look, some dispute the document.

Here is the rebuttal:

http://newadvent.org/cathen/04781b.htm

james

Tony:

Maybe the distinction that I make is something that comes from my Latin background. A "major order" is bishop, priest, and deacon. Until recently when the order of subdeacon was suppressed, it was also considered a major order. A "minor order" is porter or doorkeeper, lector or cantor, exorcist, acolyte or altar server formally constituted and usually only done so in seminaries. We have had all but lector and acolyte suppressed recently, too.

Another distinction is that one in minor orders may stop moving on to a higher level and marry without being dispensed from one's level of orders. A man in major orders cannot marry after ordination, whether priest or deacon, because his ordination is considered a marriage to the Church.

An Orthodox priest told me that in the Russian Church ordination to subdeacon precludes marriage after ordination while the Greek Church allows a subdeacon to marry after ordination. He made the distinction between major and minor orders, too. Perhaps this is no longer a distinction made in Orthodox theology and practice??

Another point that needs to be made is that it seems that this order never caught on much in the Western Church. As I posted earlier, it might be that we should look at the reasons within the experience of the Eastern Churches as they interacted with their culture that this order was deemed necessary and thus flourished. It might also be a good thing to examine why the Eastern Church discontinued this order in its practice. Then, with that information, it is time to examine why it might or might not be necessary to recover it. It seems to me that not everything that the Church ever did in its practice is something that needs to be done today. We aren't an archeological society that needs to do everything that was done in the past. Some things the Holy Spirit has guided the Church to discontinue and it seems to me tht we need to know why before simply adopting a discontinued practice.

In Christ,

BOB

Well Bob, Theophane, thanks for the long "sermon" ... You surely went into a lot of explanation to right my thoughts concerning Deaconesses . I re-iterrate that I am not a "feminist" I am only trying to understand the re-surgance of interest in the order of Deaconesses in today's Church.

I truly believe that the issue has to be studied very seriously; the Holy Spirit does also work through women you know; and also through what may seem to the men in the Church, Clergy especially, to be "tainted by feminism" as it is depicted today. I don't believe that women are trying in any way to infiltrate the "hierarchical stronghold", but are inspired to present a little more clearly those Charisms that The Holy Spirit is revealing in women, today.

As I referred tp above, the Church has called Women with specific Charismatic Gifts to be canonized and called Apostle to the apostles, as well as Doctors of the Church, like St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. Therese of Lisieux; and, in the Eastern Church, St. Mary Magdelene, St. Helen, St. Thekla, and others

As to the Church being Feminine, that is evident since Christ is the Bridegroom of the Church -- and so often depicted as a "long-suffering Bridegroom" which means that both men and women are inclcuded in the purpose of His agony, crucifixtion and death; and both men and women are called to repentance and to life in Christ!

Let's also remember that Mary and John were standing at the foot of the cross; and that Mary Magdelene and the other women were the ones depicted in the Gospel as being faithful and following Jesus in His greatest sufferings.

There seem to be many unanswered questions, on the issue of the re-establishment of the order of Deaconesses and its place in today's Church . . .

And, it it not up to us to make the decisions for its re-establishment. . .

If the Patriarch of Constantinople has deemed it right to ordain a Deaconess or two, it is not up to us to condemn that action; or to discuss its right or wrongness; but, to try to understand its purpose. Which I do not believe is the "downfall of Orthodoxy" as stated by StefanusI

I personally am praying that the Will of God be done on earth as it is in heaven! and, do no wish to belabor this point on this forum. After all most of us are not Theological experts, though are striving to read, to understand more fully our Christian Life for today.

Blessings and Peace in Christ Jesus Our Lord,

Shestelle

And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with your interest in this subject. Although your intentions are good, there are many women and men out there who do not have good intentions and are pursuing an agenda to remake the Church in their own image. This is the same crowd that wants to re-form God into their image as well, which is backwards. We are supposed to conform ourselves to the image of God.

Tony,

From the GOA website:

The Stand of the Orthodox Church on Controversial Issues [goarch.org]

Many years,

Neil

From a 1997 Interview with Bishop Kallistos Ware [stnina.org] :

Many years,

Neil, who apologizes for stirring the pot, but ran across this while looking for something else and decided that, in good conscience (or to stir the pot ) that he should post it

Neil, it's been seen and noted. Please add that source is a feminist "Orthodox" magazine interview.

Gaudior, who notes that had it not been a controversial answer, it wouldn't have been printed there

Thank you Neil for that link. Do you know which "institution" they are referring to above? Something is not "realized."

Again, I ask, where is this school and what is it called. May one go visit it?

Tony

Thanks for this one too Neil. It must be noted though that in most places those who read, chant and otherwise lead the music are not "formally blessed" either.

Bishop KALLISTOS is quite a figure, but he is but one bishop and with all due respect and admiration for all he has done to spread Orthodoxy, he is not a ruling bishop of any diocese but an assistant bishop.

THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH IN GREAT BRITAIN [nostos.com]

Gaudior,

Be that as it may (and I agree, St. Nina's Quarterly indeed has a feminist outlook/agenda), it's still an interview with a respected Orthodox hierarch.

Many years,

Neil, who holds no brief for or against restoration of the order of deaconess

Tony,

My guess - the school(institution) has been established - on paper - but is not yet realized (is still in the planning stages).

Tony and Gaudior,

As I said above, I hold no brief for or against restoration of the order of deaconess. When I have an opinion on something, I don't merely post urls, I argue for or against it.

I came across those links while searching for something that I wanted to post on another forum. I offered them here for what they might contribute to the discussion (in which I am uninvolved).

In doing so, I am acting only as an information monger. Take them for what value you wish or discard them as useless - some will take the former course, others the latter. But, please don't analyze their value to you, dismiss them out of hand, and address your distaste for the points raised in them to me, as if I cared. I don't.

Many years,

Neil, who probably sounds cranky, but isn't - just isn't interested in having it explained to him why the referenced documents aren't a source of delight to persons opposed to what the documents espouse or suggest, being able to figure that out for himself, clever person that he is

Shestelle,
"If" the Patriarch of Constantinople, has indeed "ordained" deaconesses, the Orthodoxy has already fallen, and it is up to the Church to depose him an remove him from the Patriarchal Throne.
Stephanos I