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I would like to ask everyone why we uniates are so in love with ugly vestments and made up head gear. From what I know, the SSMI make almost all the vestment commonly seen in ukrainian churches. I also know that they are not cheap, yet they use inferior galoon and cheap roman-looking fabric. Another problem seems to be their patterns which usually means that the phelonion only comes down to the priests knees (maybe they are trying to save on fabric). For the same price if not less, you could most likely find a seamstress or tailor to sew a proper set of vestments.
I also find it unbecominig when an eastern right priest wears a suit a collar, what ever happened to a poriasnik and ryassa worn with a cross (and a skufia or kamilavka)? I know that when I see a priest in the shopping mall wearing a cassock and cross that I can stop and ask for a blessing. This happens to me all the time.
Priests in my eparchy are pretty good about this, I can't remember the last time i saw one of those silly kolpaks. How is the situation in the rest of the uniate world?

ilya

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: ilya goes to church ]

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: ilya goes to church ]

Dear Ilya,

I sympathise with you on the matter of poor vestments...I don't like tasteless vestments either.

And I don't mean to knock this off topic, but the above quote struck me. Why would you find it hard to respect a priest who chooses to wear a clerical suit at times or all the time rather than a cassock and pectoral cross? I understand that the latter is preferable, and I even prefer it to the suit, but why have trouble respecting a priest over what he wears? Suit or cassock, a priest is a priest.

Just wondering...

you are absolutely right, my mistake i will correct. after all, i am just a ignorant teenager

forgive me a sinner,
Ilya

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: ilya goes to church ]

God forgives.

Forgive me as well. I hope I didn't come across as rude or anything...I just feel like priests always get a bad rap, we could cut them a little slack, esp. with little things.

Ilya,
Our paster usually wheres a black shirt with no white collar and usually ralph lauren pants. He only uses his robe and rason if the bishop is ib town or we have an event with the local ukie Orthodox. In the pastoral guide for Ukrainian Catholics in the U.S., it says the headress is to be the Kolpak from the L'viv province. Ilike the cylinder(sic?) ones better but my priest says its Russian, same with the high back vestments. Thats all from the Californian Uniate world.

-ukrainiancatholic

Excuse this poor Greek for asking, but what the heck is a kolpak? Is it perhaps a variation of 'klobuk'?

For the record, the bishops council in the U.S. mandates that in public (i.e., outside of the church and its grounds), a priest is to wear pants and clerical shirt, with or without a coat. The old rule also required a hat (Cardinal Spellman of New York was a stickler about this) but that has since been rescinded. The idea was that an adult man wearing a "dress" instead of pants would subject the church to ridicule from the non-liturgical Christians and the unchurched.

I agree that a member of the clergy should be identifiable as such; the Anglican invention of the "Roman collar" seems to serve this purpose, although I understand that in at least one Ruthenian diocese, our deacons are forbidden to wear this in public lest folks confuse them with priests. Riasson in church; slacks and tie elsewhere. Oy vey. Perhaps we should go back to the Friar Tuck look with the whole top of the head tonsure. Certainly distinctive. (Although many of us would not be able to do so since the top is 'already gone'.

Such a puzzlement!!!

Blessings!

Just a short note on the phelonion (=chasuble for the RCs).

The original Byzantine phelonion was bell-shaped and was fitted to the priest's shoulders. The Russians developed the high-back phelon with the storage space behind the neck. Some Balkan usages cut the front space so that the priest could use his hands freely. Elsewhere, the front fell almost as long as the back, and the priest had to ruffle it up over the forearms when the hands were needed. (In practical terms, it causes problems when using the kadilo/livanisterion.) There is no reason for the Ukrainians to use the high-back; it's not Ukrainian. And this usage conforms with the rest of the Constantinopolitan world.

As for ugly patterns and colors: that's where pani's come in. (And the babas too.)

Just a fashion note, not from Martha Stewart!!!

Blessings!

The kolpak is a late uniate invention used instead of the traditional kamilavkion (cylindrical hat) which is used in great ukraine, russia and greece. Just like the one piece omophorion, it is another typical blunder that we can do without. I don't know too much about the above, but Protodeacon David would be able to help you if you have any further questions.

RETURN TO TRADITION
the sooner we look and pray like the orthodox, the sooner we will be in communion with them.

Also Ephrem,
My father (who wears all the proper priestly attire [and never a suit][and high-backs too]) is a Mitrophoric Archpriest and that is why sometimes I type faster than I can think on that subject. Priest do deserve our utmost respect, their job is not easy.

Ilya

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: ilya goes to church ]

Oh John,

If only Roman Priests still wore cassocks and birrettas, they would look so much more distinguished and proper. Second, if it were socially acceptable for men to wear dresses I don't think I would ever wear pants again. If a priest can, why not?

i write too much for my own good.

ilya the sinner

A NOTE ON HIGH BACKS

In our church we have begun to use high-backs. Although they are a pan-slavic baroque variation they serve three good purposes.
1. For services like vespers and Matins, the priest removes his phelonion several times. High-backs are much easier to put on and take off rather than greek style phelonions with clasps and buttons (and sometimes zippers [why?, i don't know])
2. They allow for air circulation. Many priests sweat a lot during liturgical services and this causes greek style phelonions tend to be irritating and to wear out much faster around the neck (unless they have that wonderful greek catholic lace trim, hehehe). They keep you warm in the winter (especially in a drafty church like ours), and cool in the summer (like air conditioned vestments).
3. They provide the priest with anonymity. The priest should not be drawing attention to himself. When he faces the east it could be anybody behind that phelonion. It is surprisingly beautiful.

The fourth unofficial reason is that they look really good, especially if your priest has a beard.
Also, there are precidents for western ukrainians to wear high-backs.
My prediction, high-backs will eventually catch on and our parish with its 14 sets which are out of this world, will have been on the forefront.

LONG LIVE HIGH-BACKS!

ilya

Yes, St. Elias Parish is always the vanguard of "style" in the Uniate Church. However, as I have mentioned before, I have seen pictures of the Pastor and other clergy of the parish in suits and collars.

Ilya is correct about the kolpak. If I am not mistaken, it was invented at the Lviv Synod or Sobor of 1890 (or the one closest to that date). It was designed so that our priests would not look too Orthodox.

High-backs are nice, but I don't see a need for our Church to switch to them. If there was something theologically wrong with Greek style vestments, then sure, but this is just a matter of style. With respect to phelons I say do what you want. But don't force it upon other people.

Daniil

Spot on as usual danch.
coming to pre-sanc tommorrow?

When I was ordained 9 years ago, I ased the SSMI to make my vestments. I am 6'5" - the back of the phelonion came to the top of the back of my knees. I asked why it was so short and was told that they only had three patterns - small, medium, and large (I had received the large). I have since had an Orthodox woman in Winnipeg make my vestments. She had a lot of trouble trying to get the Greek-style collar. Although I have worn and like the high-back, to wear one out here in the West is certain "ex-communication."

The wearing of cassock and riasa is not a common thing out here - you will get ridiculed unless of course, you have a bushy beard, and wear the skufia as well (like me )- then they can't tell if you are Orthodox or Catholic.

When asked, I always respond - yes!

What does the kolpak look like?

Vicki

It looks like a Polish Cantor's hat from the Jewish synagogue tradition. Except that the cantor's hat was white, and the kolpak is black.