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hi, all--

i have a seemingly silly question. actually, it's more from ignorance, having never attended the Divine Liturgy. when i've seen the Liturgy in print, i've noticed that the kyrie will be written:"Lord, have mercy (3 times)"...or 12 times, or whatever. my question is: is the entire kyrie (i.e., Lord have mercy; Christ, have mercy; Lord, have mercy) said? or is "Lord, have mercy" said x number of times?

thanks, & God bless!

scott

Hi,

Your question isn't stupid. I know that in the Roman Catholic church it is said the way you describe. In the Orthodox church it is said 'kyrie eleison', 'x' number of times in repitition. If said in English, it is always 'Lord have mercy'; I have never heard 'Christ have mercy', (although I see nothing wrong with that).

In Christ,
Alice

Our sister Alice is correct. In the older Roman liturgy, they too had a litany at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Word (the first half, up to the Gospel). The litany was removed; however the "Kyrie Eleison" and the "Christe Eleison" litany responses were retained and became a responsorial between the priest and the acolyte, one phrase each.

Interestingly enough, in the Latin language liturgy up until Vatican II, the "Kyrie Eleison" and "Christe eleison" were always recited in Greek. It was, I was told, a way of linking with the past Greek speaking church. (Now, if we could get them to reinstate a litany at the beginning of the liturgy, it would be a nice first step.... Sorry, couldn't resist....)

Blessings!

At a Roman Catholic church I attended the entire Kyrie was sung in Greek ("Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison, Kyrie Eleison" etc.). Don't know if it's like that in all RC churches; probably not.

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen,

My parish also sings the entire Kyrie in Greek. I believe the Conference of Bishops has recommended that parishes restore the Greek form.

Khrystyna

All in good time, all in good time!!

Khrystyna

As we say here -- "Geeze a chance "

Actually we sing it in Greek too [ we sang it once in English and there was an outcry from the congregation - never done that since ]

Anhelyna

Hi All!

Gee, the Lord does move in strange and mysterious ways!

I was just in a Catholic chat room Wednesday night and one of the chatters mentioned the Kyrie and was quite amazed when several of the Eastern chatters told him it was Greek.

He thought it was Latin.

He got RATHER upset....

pity...

oh, well, so many eggs, so little time.....

mark

There was a Vatican II anecdote I once read that reminded me of that. Apparently, when the Council Fathers were talking about allowing the use of the vernacular, one bishop thought that some Latin should always be mandatory. When someone suggested allowing the Kyrie to be in the vernacular, this bishop stood up and said something like "What? At least give them THAT much Latin!" There was some silence, followed by great laughter, as everyone, including the bishop, realised what he had just said. I don't know if it's a true story or not, but I thought it was funny when I read it.

Dear Medved,

Oh, not to worry -- when I was going through RCIA one of the "team leaders" said exactly that to an enquirer who asked what language the Kyrie is -- the "leader" smiled sweetly and said "Latin". I had to bite my tongue to keep from courteously referring her to a catechumenal refresher course. This is one of my chief criticisms of all the lay "ministries" in the Roman rite these days. Too often the ones catechizing need to be catechized themselves first.

Us Latins have a whole lot of re-educating to do. Sigh.

Khrystyna

Dear Anhelyna,

I'm with you. I think the Greek Kyrie is much more beautiful than the English and I'm glad to see it coming back in more and more Roman parishes.

Khrystyna

Dear Mor Emphrem,

Loved your story about the bishops -- I can certainly image something like that happening!

Khrystyna

Me too!

My recipe for the Roman liturgy includes a little Latin and a little Greek in prayer and hymns would add reverence to the Holy Mass.

I don't think that the 2nd Vatican Council fathers intended to strip the Latin liturgy of the ancient languages.

Peace,

Paul

Dear Friends:

Currently, the Penitential Rite of the Order of Mass in the Roman Liturgy, where the "Kyrie" is interjected in, takes 3 forms.

In the first form, the "Kyrie" is always sung in either Greek or in the vernacular (English in the U.S. and in other English-speaking countries) right after the communal confession.

The "Kyrie" is recited in Greek or in the vernacular under both the 2nd and 3rd forms.

Most, if not all, parishes here in the U.S. and worldwide have been using the first form: they sing the "Kyrie" in Greek.


AmdG