www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology War Against Saddam?

This may be the wrong place to ask, but I am interested in your thoughts about the pending war against Saddam Hussein in light of the Augustinian "just war" tradition. (While Augustine is famous for his impact on western theology, as a N. African bishop, in his lifetime, was he at all part of what became eastern theology?)

Obviously, we are to pray for peace and work to make peace, but couldn't a fairly strong argument be made that there is a ruthless dictator thumbing his nose at the world's peace-seeking community while he develops an arsenal capable of putting an entire hemisphere into the kind of agony to which he has already subjected countless thousands of his own citizens (aggression "in progress")?

Is there a "Chamberlain vs. Churchill" situation here?

Well the Church has made clear that as of right now an agressive attack by the United States would not classify as "just war."

I've discussed it with my family. Obviously both nuclear weapons and the cost of gas play a role in here. Honestly, we Americans shouldn't be getting gas for $1.30 anyway. Who cares if we have to pay $6 a gallon? It's worth it to avoid a war, to save innocent humans on both sides from dying because of American consumerism. This is just my opinion though, and I really haven't looked into the whole thing in detail...something I'm sure Anam will soon blast me for.

ChristTeen287

Well, I'm gonna tell you a personal opinion. The problem here is that we talk about who has the right to defrock or change governments in other places, and what is the criteria used to identify when a government is good and when a government is bad. As a foreigner who has seen more than what the American media say, I believe that the criteria used is not a true and fair one, and that there are obscure interests inside it. Saddam Hussein was perfectly acceptable for the New World Order as long as he defended the existence his artificial state and made war against the fundamentalist Iran and kept repression against the "communist" kurds, but is no longer acceptable for it now when he started to deffend himself against the West.

It is again a criteria which is not honest. It is clear that Israel has a nuclear arsenal which threatyens all the world but it is permitted because they are accepted by the NWO's policy (and it is also obvious that Britain and the USA have a huge arsenal of all kind of massive destruction weapons, but this is not bad, because "it guarantees peace").

The crime of Saddam which is not forgiven by the NWO is not his infamous rule against the poor people of Iraq who suffer all kind of tortures under his evil government; it is his independence. The war against Iraq and the devastation that we expect against that country will work as an example for all the regimmes of the world: independent nations are not tolerated.

St. Augustine is indeed a Saint of the Orthodox Church too, but his influence in the Eastern Church had never been as important as it is in the West. St. Augustine's works were not translated to the Greek language until the 1500's. Though at the time of S Peter Mohyla, St Augustine's works were very much studied in Ukraine and Russia and has some influence.

Well, this is the example of the traditional latin views on the war against Iraq and what you asked.

http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm#just%20war%20iraq

Let us all pray for Peace!!!!!!!!!

If it can be proved that Saddam Hussien (or anyone else) is manufacturing chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons for use by terrorists groups against the United States or our allies, then I believe the criteria for a just war are met. We can't say this until sufficient inpections/intelligence are completed in Iraq. We must play all our diplomatic cards also. War is the last resort.

Remember the United States has already been attacked on our own soil (9/11). The terrorist attacks also shed blood on the USS Cole and American embassies in Africa and Asia, and in the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.

Osama Bin Laden has already declared war on the United States and our allies and has called for killing
any American (civilian and military) and our allies wherever it is possible to do so.

Terrorism must be fought. The difficult question is how.

I join others on this forum in prayer for peace.

I also believe that we must pray for wisdom and courage to fight terrorism.

Paul

Dear Friends,

I don't want to just start a war here, but shouldn't this thread be at the "Town Hall" rather than with Byzantine Faith and Worship?

Unless, of course, "bomb" has another meaning, especially when dealing with some issues of our liturgical tradition . . .

Alex

Does eastern theology have anybody who has grappled with the moral implications of and possible justifications for war? An Augustine of the east perhaps?

OK, let's go to town hall...

Dear Prodigal,

St Basil the Great taught that if any Christian participated in a war, just or otherwise, he or she is to be excommunicated for a period of three years.

Also, simply because an announcement will come that states that Saddam Hussein has not complied with the American demands etc. - is that the basis for any kind of "just war?"

Do Americans truly trust their government to tell them the truth, the whole truth and nothing but?

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the U.S. is going to hit Iraq nomatter what?

Before we can even discuss a "just war" in this context, shouldn't we be discussing what the U.S. sees as a legitimate context that would give it the green light to go ahead and go after Iraq?

If terrorism were the real issue, wouldn't have the U.S. gone after Iraq before now? The longer this thing drags out the less sense of urgency there is and the more opportunity for Saddam Hussein to actually win the public relations/political war with the U.S. - which he seems to be doing anway.

Alex

Alex is right. This thread should be at the "Town Hall."

Administrator, could you transfer this thread to "Town Hall?

Paul

I'll just make believe we are in the Town Hall, since we aren't there yet!

Prodigal - I do not personally believe that there is enough information for us to apply any Augustinian analysis...yet. Unfortunately, the full facts of diplomacy, diplomacy's failure, and war and its aftermath are usually only fully discovered in hindsight and the meaning is argued for decades, if not centuries.

Alex - I've gotta say it: no, we Americans do not blindly tend to believe or expect that our government is always telling the whole truth. I am always reminded, however, when I visit the graves of my many relatives buried in Arlington National Cemetery (including my own father, who was a combat fet, and who is buried in the same section as the military personnel more recently killed on 9/11) that war is hell and should be a last resort in the eyes of ALL civilized peoples.

Which is just that, a declaration by the Church, which, as I have read else where, is not truly binding upon us, we are free to disagree with this.

$6 a gallon? May I ask what planet you are living on? If gas prices jump that much our economy would be ruined.

Do you understand that? How much gas prices deal with the cost of almost everything?

Take a look at how it will effect you personally. For myself, I would have to stop attending the Melkite Church and start going to the local Roman Church, as it is in walking distance. I use a full tank of gas a week, and all I do is go to work and church. That would be $72 a week in gas. No public transportation go to either where I work or my church.

I think you need to reevaluate your opinion.

Saying we don't want to go to war over oil is a nice sound bite and fits neatly on a sign, but when you take a look at it deeper, there is more to it than just that.

David, still beating my head against a wall

Does anyone know why we hear so little about Osama bin Laden anymore? What is the connection between terrorism and Iraq? We've made Iraq's possession of "weapons of mass destruction" the linch pin for our war against him. Why can't we find evidence that he has some? Finally, Saudi Arabia seems a much more likely candidate for attack on the basis of support for terrorism than does Iraq. Why are they getting a pass and Iraq is under scrutiny?

Dan Lauffer

Post moved to "Town Hall"

"Just War" Theology in the East

Dear friends,

Leaving the justification of this war aside I have to disagree with a few of Remie's former comments.

She said:

"Saddam Hussein was perfectly acceptable for the New World Order as long as he defended the existence his artificial state and made war against the fundamentalist Iran and kept repression against the "communist" kurds, but is no longer acceptable for it now when he started to deffend himself against the West.

and:

"The crime of Saddam which is not forgiven by the NWO is not his infamous rule against the poor people of Iraq who suffer all kind of tortures under his evil government; it is his independence. The war against Iraq and the devastation that we expect against that country will work as an example for all the regimmes of the world: independent nations are not tolerated."

reply:
This is not true. Although I agree with you that the grounds on which the U.S. considers nations friend or foe are questionable, I don't think your description of how Iraq became our foe is correct. Iraq invaded another nation and there was reason to believe Iraq would continue this pattern in the region. It is analogous to stopping Hitler before he conquered all of mainland Europe. We, this time, stopped an aggressor in his tracks. So, I don't think it was for his "independence" but rather his aggression that we originally went to war with him.

As for this time, I'm not sure. I'm not privy to U.S. intellegence so I can't say if they have justifications for this war or not. Time will tell.

Wm. Der-Ghazarian