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It seems to me that a major diversion between East and West is the issue of God's mercy/judgement. In the Augustinian Tradition, God's wrath and judgement are highlighted more then his mercy and lovingkindness. In the East, it's the other way around. I'm often confused as to why those of the Eastern persuation are slow to accept the fact that God does judge sin, harshly at times. I have read with interest the attacks on Western theology from Eastern theologians, even though God's wrath and judgement are unmistakable in Scripture. I'm not talking Calvinism here with its semi-pagan view of an eternally angry God who delights in damning people. I'm talking about the Scriptural and Traditional view of God as a Holy Judge who does not tolerate sin, yet desires that all "turn to Him and are saved." The idea that God predestines certain people to eternal damnation is heresy. Calvinism is Augustinianism run amuck.

Do we harm ourselves by downplaying God's wrath? Do we tend to forget that God must judge sin?

Columcille

Columcille, I (largely) agree with your theses.

Part of my hesitation for becoming Eastern Catholic is due to this difference. I find that when I immerse myself in Eastern devotions and practices, I forget that God does send people to Hell and that faith alone is not enough to save my soul. Paradoxically, part of the beauty of Eastern devotion is that it does centralize itself around the mercy of God. However, when I immserse myself in Western practices, I find that I focus heavily on "cutting down" on my sin.

I think this difference is illustrated in both Western and Eastern devotions, even in the liturgies. In the traditional Roman Mass, such things are said as "O Lord, distinguish me from the nation that is not holy" whereas the Eastern liturgies frequently repeat "Lord have mercy." I think the difference is great and illustrates both sides of what should be taking place in a beliver's heart, but sometimes I think the Western devotions work better for me. Part of my hesitation for becoming Western is that it lacks the continuity of Holy Tradition that the East has so proudly and courageously upheld for two millenia.

ChristTeen287

Dear Columcille,

I think that here is where the East does indeed part company with the West.

There is no doubt that God judges sinners and the Eastern liturgical and personal penitential piety is always aware of that - the Jesus Prayer itself always has us refer to ourselves as "sinners."

But the East understands sin not so much in terms of Western juridical notions (breaking the law) but as a form of spiritual malaise or sickness.

And this is a sickness with which we have all been infected.

The Eastern liturgical prayers take the attitude that God would be entirely justified in harshly condemning us, but that we beg Him not to, in His mercy.

The Eastern prayers already ASSUME that we are worthy of condemnation and punishment - of this there can be no doubt. But we pray God to stay His hand. We tell God that if someone had mercy on a righteous person - well then that is no 'big deal.' God manifests Himself as Love precisely because He will have mercy on sinners, like us, and gave His Son for us.

Both Western Catholic and Protestant notions of God's Wrath and sin are highly juridical.

It can lead to the pharisaical attitude that "Yes, HE'S a terrible sinner, Lord, do something about him - he's not like me!"

"Sin" in the East is much more than acts of sin. It is a state of rebellion against God that we all share in through Adam - it is a spiritual disease that a life spent in Christ through the Holy Spirit is meant to cure.

Alex

In the East, we don't forget G-d is a Judge. You may want to try reading some of the Russian Fathers such as Theophan the Recluse or Pasius Velichkovski. They were well aware of the sinfull nature of man and the consequences of his actions as it relates to the Divine. I think the Eastern Staretz have moved past the idea of the Father who punishes into the concept of the need for the Father's forgiveness and patronage. In other words, we seek Theosis because our Lord deserves our love, not because if we don't we will suffer for it. Thought the latter is true, the former is the better path.

Dmitri

Possibly the best way to express it in "Latin" terms is: the East in its thoughts and prayers about our sinful condition expresses "perfect contrition" (sorrow because it offends God), rather than imperfect contrition (because we might go to hell)...we acknowlege our sinfullness because we want to love God more, rather than because it would send us to hell.

Another point often overlooked in Western theologies about hell...God sends no one there, if we end up there it is because we made the wrong choices...and we are not required to believe anyone is there. We are free to HOPE that it is empty. I know I have that hope.

Don

I am blessed to be surrounded by such intelligent folks I'm happy to see that the Eastern view is very close to my own personal view, anyway. I guess I was misunderstanding terminology.

Is it so bad for a soon-to-be Orthodox Christian to have certain Latin theological views? Maybe I can join the Western Rite.

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

You can join the Western Rite if you wish .

Just, whatever you do, don't trace the Sign of the Cross on the floor and then kiss it.

This ancient Latin practice drove the Greeks "bananas."

FYI

Alex

Well I must say that I still largely support what Columcille originally said. The West seems to focus on God's Judgment and our sin more than the East does, and the East seems to focus more on the mercy of God than the West does. Obviously this is a big generalization, but does it not generally seem true?

ChristTeen287

No, I can't agree with you there. I think the focus is on Salvation but with different aspects. I feel the East has perfected that focus somewhat through asceticism which gives way to a illumination of Divine Mercy. I think the focus on sin is very present but seen in its proper context as a way to perfect our relation with G-d versus the idea of a "stain" that must be removed. I reiterate this as I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that Easterners are soft of sin. We just see it differently...

Dmitri

Dmitri-

I notice that you write "God" the same way that I have seen Jews do. I understand why jews do it. I was curious as to why you do? Since we have icons and the Incarnation, do you feel uncomfortable writing the word "God"?

Just curious.

Columcille

It is an old habit. Personnaly, I feel it is more respectful.

Dmitri

I agree, actually. I've just never seen a Christian do it

Columcille

The West is certainly more juridical in its notions of sin, but I hardly see the East as lax in its opposition to sin. In fact, I have found the East MORE demanding than the West.

The West chants Kyrie, eleison only three times during the Mass (ok, one of those is Christe, eleison). OTOH, in the Divine Liturgy, we are constantly asking God for mercy. This isn't exactly a forgetting on the part of the East of Who is in charge.

Besides, the Latin Church doesn't have a Sunday called "The Sunday of the Last Judgment"

Dear NDHoosier:

But we have the "Feast of Mercy" on the 2nd Sunday after Easter, otherwise known as the "Divine Mercy Sunday," in the calendar of the Catholic Church, in addition to the "Hour of Great Mercy", the "Chaplet of the Divine Mercy," and the "Divine Mercy Novena."

AmdG

I think it's an unfair and untrue statement to say that the East is more demanding than the West when it comes to sin.

ChristTeen287