www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Consubstantiation - a belief in some Eastern Orthodox Churches? Can't be.

I know of Greek man in my state capital who became a Catholic and is RC, as he had no interest in anything Byzantine Catholic. I am not sure if there was any process that had to occur as it was some time ago. I think on reflextion that there might have been some formality involved at the time.

Now I am pleased we have sorted this out here but is anyone able to sort it out with Andrew?

ICXC
NIKA

I would have loved being Byzantine Catholic but I live in Crete which makes it impossible to join the Byzantine Catholic Exarchate of Greece and attend their services in Athens...

Armando ,

Welcome back to Byzcath and I hope you will have a peaceful time here with us.

I'm sure that we all know RCs that attend EC Churches for most of their life, and have not applied to transfer officially , yet they are in everyones eyes , except for those who actually process the paperwork , EC.

Yes some of us make the transfer official but on the whole it's not necessary.

If you , because you have been Received into Catholicism in an RC Church, are in fact a BC - does that matter ? You attend an RC Church , you think of yourself as an RC and you worship as an RC. The label is not that important . What is important is you - your spiritual life , and how that goes is really between you and your Spiritual Father/Spiritual Director.

Anhelyna

Alex,

Thanks for inviting me to contribute, but really, I've posted in earlier threads at length and I, to the best of my recollection, NEVER referred to OC beliefs on this matter as consubstantiation. Other people labeled them that way.

In short, think Incarnation, the feast that we celebrated on the 25th of March:

Divine and Human combined to make a new being: the God-Man Christ.

Body and Blood of Christ combined with the Bread and Wine of man to make a new thing: the Eucharist.

Think Greek: (symbol) syn volon: two things "thrown together" to make a new thing. When using symbol with this understanding, speaking soteriologically, we may say that both the Christ and the Eucharist are "symbols."

In the Holy Chalice we encounter both the Body and Blood of His work and the Bread and Wine of our work, but, together, they are, for us, a new reality.

Or, as one old and wise monk said, "If we prepare ourselves to receive the body and blood of Christ, then we will receive Him, but if we only prepare ourselves for bread and wine, then that is all that we will receive."

Hey, I don't walk around the streets of Philadelphia speaking in that way. But participants in this esteemed forum may just take the time to understand it. I didn't make it up, it is your own Eastern Tradition.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It's great to know you're not a Lutheran or "Lutheranizing"

Just one more question. Do you believe that the bread and wine remain after the Consecration/Epiclesis?

Alex

I think really we will never be able to truly comprehend or explain what is taking place in the transformation of the gifts. The mystery of the Eucharist is too deep and too profound (in my opinion).

I think to understand how the church truly views what is being offered, you should look at how it regards and acts around the gifts. Like I said, now that it is Lent we prostrate ourselves before the chalice. During the normal weekly liturgy we begin hold the gifts in reverence during the Great Entrance; aware already that the process has begun that has no defined moment of change. Only the priest or deacon handles the chalice. Even the antidoron, which is only blessed, is treated with respect. Any crumbs we drop should be picked up and consumed. We fast totally from the night before in order to receive. You can keep coming up with all of the ways in which we show our regard for what is before us.

One story that comes to mind is that once my son had a bad reaction to the Eucharist, it went down too fast or something. Anyway, about the worst thing that can happen did and some spilled on the floor. My wife immediately got down and consumed what she could off the floor. Then everyone moved aside and one of the cloths was used to wipe up the spot and was left there to mark it. When the liturgy was over the cloth was burned.

Andrew

Alice,
I believe it is very much discouraged. I cannot find the canon but will search when I have more time.I received (please forgive me) an Romanian Orthodox lady into communion with the Latin Church once. It was only after all those attempts to keep her Orthodox failed that I then conceded and received her. But I did make it clear that she was a Romanian Catholic, and that she was welcomed to attend the Latin Church.
Stephanos I

Dear Alex,

Neither Sodium nor Chlorine exist in nature as pure elements. Sodium (Na) is too volatile and Chlorine (Cl) is a gas that disperses. But if I "throw together" (synvolon) Na molecules and Cl molecules that I have coaxed from other compounds and combine them I would have common salt (NaCl).

Is either Sodium or Chlorine present in salt in its pure state? Was either ever present in its pure state? Both have been changed in order to form salt.

As my namesake here pointed out, even before the consecration, are they "just" bread and wine or are they the "offeratory" bread and wine? Do we make toasts at dinner from the unconsecrated wine kept at the table of oblation? If we have an extra prosphora/bread, not needed for the liturgy, do we feed it to the dog?

The Bread and Wine in the consecrated chalice are now the "consecrated" Bread and Wine, just as the Body and the Blood are the "glorified and resurrected" Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. Neither stands alone in the Eucharist. They have been thrown together. And that is the miracle that reminds us of his great condescension and never ending love for us in the Incarnation and all that follows from it.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, your thoughts are very interesting on the matter. When you said

My thoughts are exactly, we already recognize something is different. When we bake prosphora at home for the parish for example we go through a process and a rule of prayer given to us by our priest. In essence we have already started the process of transformation to my way of thinking, because we have already begun the �consecration� to the level we are able to with our own sinful hands and prayers. The bread has already been set aside and to some level is different.

One aside, at our parish during the trapeza any antidoron not eaten during the liturgy is set out in a basket along with all of the other food. When helping to clean up and after all of the antidoron is gone I will take the basket outside and shake the communion cloth out to scatter the crumbs for the birds. I was taught that this was the appropriate way to distribute the little bit that is left of the blessed bread. I�ve always thought that was a neat tradition.

I�m a great believer in the maxim �lex orandi, lex credendi�. I think if anyone really wants to know what Orthodoxy believes about the Eucharist they shouldn�t read a book or a web page. They should go in to an Orthodox parish and see what happens there.

Andrew the lesser

Dear Father Stephanos,

No offense taken AT all and NO need to ask my forgiveness!

I believe in following one's heart and soul to Jesus Christ and salvation, whether the path taken at the fork in the road leads to Rome, or to Constantinople!

May God bless the spiritual path of that Romanian woman.

Our beloved Alex said something recently to the effect of feeling pain at being Orthodox but not in communion w/Constantinople.

I can sympathize, for I often feel the pain (and I think alot of other cradle Orthodox do deep down in their hearts, too) of not *also* being in communion with Rome and the seat of Peter as well as my beloved Eastern Patriarchs.

I will never forget the loving and reverend way (crossing themselves Orthodox style) which a group of Orthodox women tourists from Greece (standing infront of me in line to enter St. Peter's in the Vatican) kissed the feet of the statue of St. Peter. Their actions spoke louder than words.

That is why I pray for the day that we will be in some sort of communion with each other in the spirit of the first millenium.

My private Lenten meditation this year has been how the Church, both East and West, has been built on the blood of the early martyrs, and how in awe I am of their sacrifice and love for Christ... we cannot forget that many of those brave people whose martyrdom under vicious persecution paved the way for us ALL today, died in holy Rome.

May the holy martyrs pray for the reunification of the Church they helped build.

Respectfully in Christ,
Alice

Dear Andrew and Andrew,

(As my school is St Andrew's, I insist all the teachers wear an icon button of St Andrew - I have provided them all with one! )

I remember when my grandfather spent all day baking the prosphora loaves, the prayers that were said and the solemnity of the occasion that made it feel as if there was a feastday of some sort . . .

Alex

Stupendous, being not only an Andrew but having St. Andrew the First Called as my patron. I plan to further celebrate my namesake by bringing a nice single malt Islay to the paschal meal.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

As you know, King Robert the Bruce in his declaration said that the Scots came originally from Scythia and that "Scottia" was a play on that name - and that this was why St Andrew is the Scots' patron as well (St Rule brought his relics to Scotland, as I understand, but Andrew's veneration there predates that event).

There is also the argument that the Orthodox three bar Cross with slanted footrest is ultimately a reference to St Andrew's Cross as well.

Alex

And of, course, the ancient name of Scotland is "Albania." (I did not make that up, it is true.)

So, the Scots are really Albanians! If your name is Andrew, you are a .... Scottish-Albanian. Now everyone is on the same page!

In Christ,
Andrew

PS: To Andrew: Yes the crumbs go to the birds, and even the dogs, as we hear in the Gospel of the crumbs that fall from the master's table. Ah, yes, the crumbs, so full of meaning!

I think it is also the ancient name of the area we call Azerbaijan or Trans-caucasia.

ICXC
NIKA