www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The "Holy Fire" of Orthodoxy -- Question?

<b><font color=blue>Beloved of the Forum --

From time to time I read of the "Holy Fire" of Jerusalem which takes place only for the Orthodox patriarch of Jerusalem. It is often tossed in the face of others as a sort of "proof text" that God's favor resides only upon Orthodoxy. The more mild Orthodox statements regarding this validation of God place others in the category of merely heterodox. The more strident place all others for whom this miracle does not work as being heretics.

Might I ask for a bit of feedback from those present? Surely this is a wonderful miracle, yet is it any less than the stigmata of Padre Pio? Of the miraculous cures of our St. Nicholas? There are verifiable miracles throughout all branches of apostolic Christendom.

Thank you for your responses.

Brother Ed

Point is well taken.

I dislike it when proponents of either side use "their" miracles as a proof-text. Romans are just as capable of this -- I have had more than one Roman Catholic try to proof-text me on the basis that the Romans have the apparitions, therefore Roman Catholicism must be the true faith. That's the flipside of the extremists among Orthodox who draw too many conclusions from the miracle of the Holy Fire. We should rejoice in all true miracles and know that, while they are expressed differently in our churches, they are of God.

One side-note on the Holy Fire. It's sometimes used also as a proof-text of the Orthodox paschalion (ie, it only happens on Orthodox Easter, not on Catholic Easter in those years -- most of the time -- when the calculation is different).

Brendan

Dear Brother Ed,

The Holy Fire is truly a great miracle that has been occurring in Jerusalem at the Tomb of our Lord for centuries.

I would like to suggest two things.

One, the Miracle of the Holy Fire began long before the separation of the Churches. It therefore belongs to both East and West.

Secondly, miracles occur in the Roman Catholic Communion as they do in the Orthodox Catholic Communion.

Miracles attest to God's action in the world. We do not know if, by them, God is saying this or that about the Church in which it occurs or with which it is associated.

For example, there are more than thirty, ongoing Eucharistic Miracles that persist RIGHT NOW. UNESCO scientists are amazed with these.

Yet, we know that they all occurred during moments when people expressed doubt in or disrespect for the Blessed Eucharist (e.g. the Miracle of Lanciano etc.).

And what of the Miracle of Our Lady of Zeitoun in Egypt? She appeared above the cupolas of an Oriental Orthodox Church. Does that mean that the Mother of God is saying that all Roman Catholics and Byzantine Orthodox should go over to the Coptic Church?

Yet, even Egyptian Protestants came to praise our Lady during those apparitions.

Russian Orthodox have frequented Marian Shrines in France, Lourdes and La Sallette for example.

There is so much historical sharing of miraculous Icons between East and West that to say which is truly "Eastern" or not would be next to impossible.

Also, there are so many saints whose background are Eastern who are venerated in the West, and other Western ones who are honoured in the East - where does one begin to draw lines?

Perhaps God has purposefully chosen to mix us up, like the people at the Tower of Babel who were trying to ascend heavenward.

As Brendan has said, quoting a famous Orthodox Metropolitan of the past, our "walls do not reach up to Heaven."

May the Holy Fire warm us all at Pascha!

Alex

<b><font color=blue>Brother Alex --

Thank you for the information on the other miracles from the Coptic Church, as well as reminding me of the Eucharistic miracles.

I think sometimes we forget, in our self-centered desire to be right, that salvation is a matter of the heart and the Eucharist, which Body of Christ, truly confected by a validly ordained priest, makes up the Church, both East and West. I continue to pray for unity and continue to be sorrowful over our separation.

Interesting that most Anabaptists and Protestants are anti-miraculous, stating instead that any such working in the world is of evil origin. Yet even as a Protestant, I couldn't shake the uneasy feeling that if Christ is active in the world, miracles should be continuing as He works among us. I think what put me off was the charlantanism of the charismatic movement, which when I was in a charismatic rite for 4 years, I saw up close and personal.

Thanks to you and Brendon for the reply.

Brother Ed

Dear Brother Ed,

You are right about the Charismatics and about how anyone who is interested in how God sanctifies us will be interested, in one way or another, in saints.

My favourite example in the Protestant world is Methodism.

There is a new Methodist calendar with about 95 entries of Methodist preachers and martyrs.

During the Civil War, there was a story about a commanding officer of the Union who cut up pieces of a cloak belonging to a revered and deceased Methodist preacher and gave one to each of his men before a battle.

Francis Asbury's site where he preached is highly honoured by Methodists as is Francis himself (of course, they don't invoke him!).

At one point, Wesley's Chapel in London was selling bricks belonging to the old chapel as a kind of "relic" as one Methodist minister told me.

John Wesley himself lived a very holy life and, according to the book, "Rumour of Bishops" had at one time thought of receiving Orthodox Episcopal Consecration!

Wesley himself said that he "revered the Fathers of the Church."

He prayed one to three hours, morning and night. He also prayed the Apostolic Third, Sixth and Ninth Hours.

He also used a knotted cord on which he said repeated invocations. A Methodist prayer manual I have seen actually advocated this type of prayer on hand-made prayer cords!

Wesley also decried Protestant attacks against Marian Shrines in England, especially at Walsingham.

Today, there is a Methodist Church at Walsingham.

God bless,

Alex

"Let every human being take up a TORCH, and let him dance with joy in his spirit."

----Hirmos of the Acathist

Brother Ed,

Listen to Alex.
God's grace is without walls.


[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 04-12-2001).]

I break my silence again to comment on this.

I have a video tape showing the 'miracle of the Holy Fire'. It was done by a Russian crew and is entirely in Russian. However, it does show the Orthodox Patriarch being searched for matches prior to entering the Tomb of Christ which had previously been searched by Moslems and shut and sealed with a wax seal. It shows the Patriarch entering the tomb and seconds later a flash of bright light emulates from the tomb. The Patriarch comes out of the tomb with a lighted taper. Sometimes the flames come from the tomb while at other times they come from the dome of the church. Which comes down and lights the tapers of many of the people. It is said that for the first 5 minutes or so the flame does not burn and the video shows people passing their hand over the flame and men passing the flame over their bearded faces without being ignited or burned.
The video also shows the burnt and split column where the light passed thru to light the candle of the Orthodox Patrairch in the year he was forbidden to enter the church. The story is that one year the Armenians bribed the Moselm guards and the Orthodox Patriarch was forbidden to enter the church.
He and his people stood outside the church with their tapers. When the time came, a bolt of lightening came from the church and passed through the column to light the taper of the Orthodox Patriarch. That column is still standing today.

From another Orthodox discussion group, here is an eyewitness account of the miracle by someone who witnessed it a few years ago -

31 March 1995

My dearest brother in Christ, George,

Yes, I was in Jerusalem during Pasxa of 1989, and I did witness the Holy
Fire. I was standing in the Altar of the Holy Church of the Resurrection
within the Holy Sepulchre building, an unlikely place to catch a good look,
considering the Patriarch is in the small enclosure where the Holy Tomb is,
outside the Church at the other end of the building.

X
i.e.: Altar -> X - a million people - X <- Holy Tomb
X

But when the time came around noon on Holy and Great Saturday, I looked up
into the dome, which could easily be seen from the Altar, and a blaze of
lightening began shooting around the inside of the dome. It was circling
inside the dome, bouncing around the dome and descending in a downward
spiral. Suddenly, it shot out towards the Holy Tomb, but just as I thought
we'd lost sight of it until the Patriarch would come out of the Tomb with it
and light our candles, a woman next to me began to scream as the light zoomed
past her unlit candle and lit it. Then, many people began to notice their
candles were being lit by shooting rays, (usually pious old ladies). I lit
my candle and touched the fire. It really does not burn. I put my hand in
it. It does not burn."

Since the new Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem has not been chosen or consecrated, wonder who will will officiate.

Bob

You can access the following website to read the story and see pictures of this miracle that takes place on Holy Saturday -
http://www.holylight.gr/agiofos/holyli.html#martyria

For those who have quick time you can see a short video of the miracle taken by person present in 1994.

Bob

Thank you all for sharing the information of the holy fire. What a marvelous show of the power of God made visible! Truly God does as He wills!

Thank God also for the Mysteries in which He shares His very Self with us.

Joy!

A Blessed Easter to all who celebrate it now.

Dear Robert,

Thanks for the link. I find the miracle fascinating, as I've heard of it, but never heard too much. I viewed the QuickTime video after reading the article before it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the author seems to be rather zealous in the cause of (Greek?) Orthodoxy.

Anyway, I saw the video and had a few questions. The article describes bright lights, kinda like camera flashes. It looked exactly like that. How can one be sure from the video that that's not what it actually is? And as far as the orbs of fire go, how can one be sure that it's not just a guy with a torch running through the crowd? After all, the videographer admits that the camera at the time was somewhat out of focus.

I'm not trying to deny a miracle. I guess there's just too much "doubting Thomas" in this Thomas Christian to let it go. Are cameras with flashes, torches, etc. just not allowed in the church? Finally, are there any English language videos of this miracle that one can borrow through the library in order to get a better idea of this? Thank you.

[Correct me if I'm wrong, but the author seems to be rather zealous in the cause of >(Greek?) Orthodoxy.]

I would say so. But what's your point? He is excited about a miracle he witnessed. That would account for his zealousness.

[The article describes bright lights, kinda like camera flashes. It looked exactly like that. How can one be sure from the video that that's not what it actually is?]

I would assume that some of the flashing you see may be caused by the cameras. But I don't remember it saying that the flashing is being caused by the light that sometimes emulates from the dome of the Church. He does talk about the ball of light you see. On the video I have I'm sure it shows the sparks of lightening bolts that comes from the dome. On the video it shows orbs of light coming from the dome and this huge flash of bright light coming from the tomb before the Patriarch exits the tomb. Many of the candles are already lit when the Patriarch emerges. They were lit by the rays of light that come from the dome itself.

[And as far as the orbs of fire go, how can one be sure that it's not just a guy with a torch running through the crowd? After all, the videographer admits that the camera at the time was somewhat out of focus.]

You got to be kidding me! Did you see the crowd in the Church? It's shoulder to shoulder and mass pandemonium! People are pushing and shoving each other! There's no way in heck a person could be running around in that crowd with a lighted tourch. You seem to be grasping at straws to discredit what has been going on for amost 2000 years. It's a miracle in itself that no one is stampeded or burned to death in the mass hysteria that is going on.

When you first see it, it is a shock to those of us who are used to structure and silence in Church. The crowds inside the church seem to be disrepectful within the church in their exuberance.

[Finally, are there any English language videos of this miracle that one can borrow through the library in order to get a better idea of this? Thank you.]

Not that I'm aware of. The video I have is in Russian. However, the person that developed the website offers to send the tape to those that request it. The email address given indicates he may be in Greece but the website is in English. Why not send him an email if you are so much the doubting Thomas. Maybe he will send you a copy of the tape. His email seems to be -

holylite@otenet.gr

Also check with your local library or contact the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website and ask them.

Have a glorious Pascha!

Bob

Dear Bob,

Christ is Risen!

Let me clarify a few things. I fear I may have said the right thing the wrong way, or something like that. Life hasn't been too easy this last week.

As far as zeal goes, my point was that it seemed (at least to me) that the miracle was being used as an example of the rightness of Eastern Orthodoxy, to the exclusion of others. I know Syrian Orthodox who, while not having that miracle, have others...but can or should these be used to regard one as superior to another? I think not.

And I'm not trying to discredit something like this. On the contrary, I'm trying to learn more. There are many reports of miracles, some of longer history than others. It has sometimes happened that these were fabrications, and at other times, one can clearly see that something is of a miraculous nature. I'm trying to learn more about what I think is a miracle, as I'm pretty much wholly uninformed.

Dear Brother in Christ Vasili,

Christ is Risen!

Thank you for your kindness - I treasure your spiritual insight and spiritual struggles!

If there was any way I could purchase a calendar of your Church or other Old Believer devotionals, I would be forever in your debt!

Alex

Here is another web site for infromation on the miracle of the Holy Fire -
http://holylight.1821.gr/

Peace of Christ be with you all,

I don�t post here often but I do read your posts. I was interested in this thread about the �Holy Fire� as it pertains to may family very directly. In the year 1053 AD, my ancestors living on the Greek island of Samos prayed to God that He would allow a pious woman in our family to conceive, as she and her husband were trying for many years but to no avail. She and her husband made a vow, that should the wife conceive they would dedicate this child t the service of the Lord. Some thing very similar to what Hanna in the Old Testament vowed about her son Samuel. Sure enough a year later she conceived a male child. Deciding to do good on their promise, my ancestors moved from the Island of Samos and went to Jerusalem, were the child eventually grew up to be a Greek Orthodox priest serving the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in the Chapel of St. Jacob. That priest then had a son who also became a priest and so on and so forth for 25 consecutive generations. Our original Greek family name was Papadupoulus but because of so many priests in the family it was changed to Khoury, which is a Syriac word meaning priest. As far as I know, my family has the longest line to continual Greek Orthodox priesthood anywhere. The last person to be a Greek Orthodox priest in our family was my paternal Grandfather named Fr. George Khoury who served the same church and was the archpriest serving the Arab speaking Greek Orthodox community in Jerusalem.

The reason I went through this long introduction is to state that my priestly ancestors always attended the services of the Holy Fire in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and can attest to it�s authenticity for almost the 950 years that they have been there. More recently, my grand father, Fr. George Khoury, was the priest who would be one of the first people to light his candle from the one that the Patriarch holds after coming out of the tomb. I can assure you first hand that this miracle is true and genuine.

Here are some great sites about the miracle of the Holy Fire.

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/jerusalem.html

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

Here is a great site about the apparition of the Blessed Virgin Theotokos in Zeytoun in Egypt OVER the Coptic Orthodox Church named after her.

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/


Christ Bless.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Dimitrius ]