www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Czech married Latin priests to become Byzantine

I don't know very much about czech history but there was a similar situation in southern mexico after the revolution. In 1921 the law of the States of Tabasco and Chiapas restricted the ordaination of religious ministres and priests only to married men who were 40 years old or more. As a result of the religious persecution the ordainations were clandestine and a small number of married men served as priests. The catholic church was silent and nothing happened. In the 80-90's some episcopalian priests became catholic and they were allowed to serve as permanent deacons (unfortunately there's not a "eastern option" for married men who wanted to be ordained to priesthood because the eastern eparchies in Mexico, maronite and melkite, don't accept married clergy. Inclusively the antiochian orthodox diocese of Mexico doesn't have married clergy.

Is there ever a point where such influence could be judged "inappropriate"? Might it be when the local Latin parish becomes more Byzantine than the Byzantine parish around the corner?

A few years ago in Ambridge, Pa., the local newspaper ran an illustrated feature story about a local RC church which had just redecorated its church "in Byzantine style" and as such, pretty much the entire interior of the church is now covered with Byzantine iconography. Meanwhile, the "Byzantine" [Ruthenian] church down the street resembles a Friends Meeting House -- whitewashed interior with NO ICONOGRAPHY whatsoever. (The '60s "rainbow-seated Jesus holding the whole wide world in his hands" behind the altar doesn't count.) Nor an icon screen, nor a tetrapod with even a tiny festal icon upon it.

I'm not sure anyone in Ambridge even picked up the irony of the situation.

>>>Is there ever a point where such influence could be judged "inappropriate"? <<<

Of course, and the situation you describe qualifies as such. I am a big supporter of Tradition. Like I stated previously, I don't have a big problem with a Latin church having an icon or two. The problem I see is that a Roman Catholic probably doesn't look at an icon the same way as does an Eastern Christian. If they are being used simply to decorate the church, than I believe this is wrong. But to go to the extent that you describe is certainly inappropriate. I believe that the Eastern Church should retain/return to their authentic Tradition and customs, free from Latinizations. I have taken heat here by stating this b/c I'm a Latin Catholic and apparently have no business saying such things, even though I only echo the Holy Father. But I'm also a proponent of the Latin Church retaining its Tradition, free from Easternization, and more importantly, protestantizations.

I think that all Traditions of Catholicism should be preserved and celebrated without the influence of foreign rituals or theological perspectives.

Columcille

"Like I stated previously, I don't have a big problem with a Latin church having an icon or two. The problem I see is that a Roman Catholic probably doesn't look at an icon the same way as does an Eastern Christian. If they are being used simply to decorate the church, than I believe this is wrong."

IMO, it depends on the situation. In Vienna's St. Stephen's Cathedral, for example, there is a shrine to the icon of the Theotokos of Mariapoch, complete with (Latin style) vigil lamps. In my numerous visits to this Cathedral, there have always been many people praying before the icon (what they're supposed to be doing) and many of these are clearly RCs. This particular icon, of course, has been there for some time, dating back to Habsburg Empress Maria-Theresa's support for the Greek Catholic Church in the Habsburg realm. Recently, I've noticed icons popping up in more of Vienna's churches, probably because Cardinal Schoenborn is a definite Byzantinophile (much of his theological writings relate to Byzantine theology, interestingle enough). Don't know how well that sits with mainstream Austrian Roman Catholics.

Poland, to take another example, embraces miraculous icons with legitimate indigenous fervor.

Here in the USA, I think that there *may* be a risk that this is an escapism of a sort, or a fad of a sort ("Byzantine" Christianity is definitely *hip* in some circles these days) -- discernment is required, I think.

Brendan

IMO, it depends on the situation

Agreed: it all depends on the context in which the icons are being used. If they are being used by traditional Roman Catholics for prayer, in a context of small-o orthodox Catholic theology and worship, like Brendan describes Austria and Poland, then that�s the purpose for which they are intended and there is no problem. If they are being used as decoration by those who aren�t orthodox, like as part of an abuse-ridden Novus Ordo Mass, a dissident feminist service, a pretty collection of religious art or someone�s eclectic New Age shrine, then there�s a problem.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

BTW Brendan you might be interested in the fact that Arch Schoenborn of Austria has apparently been involved with the reprinting of Vladimir Soloviev's classic RUSSIA AND THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH due out in the fall. I am not sure exactly how he's involved (writing an introduction perhaps), but Catholic Answers is apparently putting out the reprint.

Well, that reprint is long overdue, even if that particular text by Soloviev is hopelessly polemical and shamelessly anti-Orthodox. Soloviev's "Letcures on Godmanhood" would seem to be the seminal work, by contrast.

Brendan

that particular text by Soloviev [�Russia and the Universal Church�] is hopelessly polemical and shamelessly anti-Orthodox

Agreed. I read an excerpt online and wasn�t impressed.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

LANCE: Also, the severity of persecution also varied from region to region. The Roman Church enjoyed more freedom in Slovakia than in the Czech Republic. The government did allow a limited number of ordinations in Slovakia, but refused to grant permission in the Czech Republic, necessitating the underground ordinations.

There are few similar cases in Slovakia, but the situation is incomparable.

LANCE: How familiar are these men with the Byzantine Church. Do they embrace and love our spirituality and traditions? Or, do they simply want to remain priests and are willing to do anything to remain so? Will they Latinize the Exarchy of Prague?

There are problems with this priests (originally of Latin rite), they do not know the rite, traditions, customs, they do not understand the spirituality and the theology of Byzantine rite. And mostly, there is not enough sympathy or interest into Byzantine rite, traditions etc. They live in region, where the Byzantine Rite is in diaspora, where communities were found in last ten years. They were originally all of Latin Rite. Of course, they were formed in Latin spirituality and they were consecrated to serve in Latin Church. And so they latinize the Byzantine church (mostly, some exceptions could be find). It is a pity, because, they could be very good priests in Latin rite. But they are not familiar with Byzantine Church. It is unserious to the priests, (why they are forced to go to the Byzantine Catholic Church, when Rome could easily allow a dispensation as it does for converting Protestant ministers) and to the Byzantine Church.

LANCE: I think it reflects badly on the Vatican and shows a great deal of insensitivity towards the Eastern Catholic Churches.

You are right. The Byzantine Church is not a "junkyard", where the Latin Church can dump priests, they do not w&#1072;nt. :-(

andreios
<a href="http://grkat.nfo.sk/eng/">Byzantine Catholic Church in Slovakia</a>

Welcome to byzcath.org, Andrej! I hope you�ve seen the banner for your site on the Faith page of mine.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Here in the USA, I think that there *may* be a risk that this is an escapism of a sort

If you mean escaping from the heresy that�s overrun the Novus Ordo, that�s not a bad thing! I�ve never met refugees who have tried to change an Eastern Catholic church.

or a fad of a sort ("Byzantine" Christianity is definitely *hip* in some circles these days)

Since Byzantine Christianity is o/Orthodox, this fad might take root in some people and cause only good. But as for hipness, while this description is flattering � and maybe, just maybe the Orthodox tradition can reach and convert postmodern secular people in a way the Tridentine Roman one can�t (partly because the latter has been knocked out of commission for so long) � I hate it when the same people who make fun of the Rosary and Sacred Heart then sometimes turn around and patronize Byzantines � �oh, I love icons�.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 07-03-2001).]

>>>If you mean escaping from the heresy that�s overrun the Novus Ordo<<<

About 2 months ago I may have taken slight exception to this. While the Novus Ordo is chock full of liturgical abuses and illicit activity, I think "heresy" may be a bit strong.

HOWEVER, about 6 weeks ago I was visiting my parents in PA. My father and I attended the local Roman "Catholic" church on Sunday. For the fist time I heard flat out heresy with my own ears. One of the petitions was to the effect of: "And may the Holy Spirit guide us in ITS Wisdom!" ITS!! This is heresy. The Holy Spirit is HE not IT. I suspect the liberal parish feminists were behind this. This was an assault on the very Trinity.

My father has not been back since.

Columcille

>>>And does the Czech Latin Church also intend to send us the Czech women who were ordained as deacons as well? <<<

I would look forward to that. About time the Byzantine Churches restored the ordained order of Deaconess. And for once, we would beat the Orthodox to the punch.

With regard to the Novus Ordo Mass, I think it is primarily an issue to be worked out in the Western Catholic community. While there are some contemporary celebrations of Mass which are liturgical disasters (Education! Education! Education!), there are others that are quite prayerful -- although perhaps a bit austere for Byzantine (or Eastern) tastes. We Byzantine Catholics should stay out of the fray and keep our mouths closed; this is even more true for the Orthodox.

Apropos the Holy Spirit being referred to as "it", it's a linguistic boo-boo that is happening with pronouns in American English. I CRINGE everytime I hear "each student should pick up THEIR notebook". Each is singular, referring to ONE person; the THEIR part is plural. The correct form should be each student should pick up his or her notebook. And we're doing the same thing with subject verb agreement: singular subject, plural verb. "The cause of the diseases are clear." So, to quote my most famous aphorism:

More evil exists in this world as a result of stupidity and thoughlessness than as a result of malice.

(Next time it happens, go into the sacristy afterwards, tell 'em you're a former nun and give 'em a sound whack across the knuckles. They'll not soon forget.)

Blessings!

Just as an aside since a part of the conversation has drifted to pneumatological terminology .... at this past Pentecost, our pastor gave a homily addressing precisely this issue, entitled "The Holy Spirit: An "it"? A bird? "The Force"?"

Brendan