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Hello everyone!

I've been following this thread and the past few posts have sparked my curiousity (about a subject perhipheral to the original topic, which is why I'm starting a new one).

What are the norms (the rules and how they're implemented) in the Eastern Churches for congregational participation and the role of the choir?


This is a question that's generated a whole lot of heat in the Latin rite. I'm curious what the Eastern Rite practice is.

What we do in the current choir ("Traditional" 1962 Latin missal, with few hard rules and a hodgepodge of conflicting traditions on the matter) I'm in is just sing various chants, which the congregation generally does not participate in (probably because the chants aren't consistent). The attitude is "let them sing if they want, but don't expect and certainly don't try to force them to".

Nevertheless, there's still sometimes significant congregational singing at each mass(especially if we sing Credo III, a chant for the Nicene Creed), and most astonishingly during Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament on Holy Thursday (at our parish the Priest and the Blessed Sacrament paraded around the Church and the congregation sang the entirety of the long hymn Pange Lingua) loud enough that the choir was dwarfed).


Just kind of curious, because this century there have been all kinds of attempts to foster congregational singing on the Latin side, generally without success. I've witnessed several embarassments: once a cantor who'd constantly exhort the congregation to sing during a never-heard-before 7/8 time pseudo-rock song, and another time a teaching a song was a long part of a homily].

God bless!!

Marcus, a sinner

Greetings!

Dear Marcus,

As a Latin myself I cannot speak to the norms or rules, I am sure others can give you a more concise answer.

Among the Eastern Catholics of the SubCarpathian region congregational singing is a tradition from at least the late 19th century. Musical instruments are traditionally not acceptable in the temple so the human voice has a particular importance in the worship. Part of the struggle within the Byzantine Ruthenian churches is to maintain or restore the congregational singing because it is so delightful and integral to the particular style, but they are also interested in developing great choirs that can take advantage of the best of the liturgical music from Russia, Bulgaria and other countries.

The question might be, how do we develop good choirs without hurting the tradition of congregational singing so important to the style of worship.

Beyond that, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of new composition; there is an enormous wealth of old music though. People will sing what they know, but even very old traditional music will be new to some congregations.

From what I remember from my old Latin parishes the congregation will sing what they know, but there is always something new being introduced and much of it is recently composed or borrowed from other religious groups. It's not usually a case of singing something from childhood or Great Grandpas days, it could be entirely foreign to the people and it would take a lot of work and patience to get them to become familiar with it, that's a huge hurdle.

Couple this with the fact that some parishes are enormous and you could have large pockets of worshippers reluctant to raise a voice. I remember being surrounded like that, with maybe 60 people around me not singing and I felt like I was singing alone with a cantor far off in the distance. It does not encourage ones best efforts.

One of the things that attracted me to the parish I now attend is the singing, I was engulfed by worshippers singing. Since I was unaccustomed to that it made quite an impression on me and encouraged me.

In Christ,
Michael

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!

Dear Latin Visitor,

This is one subject that the term "eastern rite" will get you no decent answer. Every church sui juris in communion with the See of Peter has a different practice.

Among the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who are related to them, today only the Galicians (Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox) and the Rusyns (the Byzantine Catholics in the USA and the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of Johnstown PA) have the practice of congregational song being the NORM. [Among the Eastern Orthodox who have no parallel Catholic body in the USA, there is still normative congregational singing in the Old Rite Russian Orthodox--i.e., the Old Ritualists.)

The Galicians, however, have been heavily influenced by both the Russians and the Poles in the practice of having choirs in larger parishes, which (in some places) have rooted out or radically reduced congregational song. Catholics and Orthodox of Rusyn descent (and their co-religionists who call themselves Slovaks or Hungarians as well) have not suffered this loss, thanks be to God.

It can fairly be said that there is a certain amount of tension between choirs and congregational singing---but this tension is not a requirement. When people of good will and good liturgical sense are working together, a modus vivendi can be developed which permits the choir to support congregational singing as well as to add their specific talent in singing "figured" music, too. But in our part of the Church, the voice of the congregation, singing prostopinije (i.e., our "plainchant") has the pride of place. It is this singing that is referred to in the Typikon, the book that guides our conduct of the divine services.

One of the greatest challenges facing the Byzantine Catholic Church today is to embrace our plainchant tradition and to transmit it, vigorous and vital, to both the younger generations and to the people who have come to make our Church their church home. God willing, we will face this challenge and build upon our fine tradition.

J. Michael Thompson
professor of ecclesiastical chant
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Prof. Thompson,
Christ is Baptized!

Your comments on the choir and the people working together are most appropriate.

Our parish is gifted with an exceptional men�s chorus. They practice weekly and are very accomplished in Slavonic as well as English. However, there is a tendency for the people to sing less when the chorus is leading the responses. This could be a result of the people not knowing their tones well enough, or simply just listening to the captivating four-part harmony.

What our parish has done is to limit the role of the chorus so the chorus does not dominate the responses of the people. The chorus leads the responses once a month. Since we have two liturgies on Sundays (no comments on this, please; we are trying to build a larger church to accommodate the people), the chorus rotates each month between the first and second liturgy. The typical parishioner thus participates with the chorus once every two months.

This frees the chorus to expand in other directions. For Sunday liturgies, they are very careful that their role is to lead the responses, and not to replace the role of the people. However, at times other that liturgy, they can offer performances. They visit nursing homes throughout the year and perform. They perform at our annual church picnic. From time to time, other performance/concert opportunities also come up.

An interesting exception is weddings. Since most of the people attending our weddings seem to be visitors, the chorus provides the responses at most of these events. Rather than having the church full of people and one or two cantors alone in the responses, the chorus adds a filling aspect of truly Eastern character to the celebration. For most people, this may be the first Eastern liturgy they have attended. The men freely give of their time for practices, performances and weddings, and truly represent the best of celebrating Eastern Christianity.

Deacon El

Dear Latin Visitor Marcus,

You may want to see some of the comments and anecdotal references in the thread "Cantors" in the Town Hall subforum.

In Christ,
Andrew

Yes, I should have thought of that.

Well, either way, the answers here answered my question well enough. It gives me some idea of what the ideals and principles on participation are in other Churches [even if the method of questioning is imprecise].

Thank you all for your time in providing your expertise.

As to increasing and preserving traditions of participation, when I sat in the pews I generally wanted to sing, and was much more likely to sing if:

1. I was familiar with what was being sung (i.e. heard it several times)
2. what was being sung was simple

Another technique one could use on a shy congregation is to take the loudest person in the choir and place them as an agent provocateur in the congregation. Hopefully the example of one will spur the others.

My only familiarity with the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was at a Ukrainian Parish, where two very large (ergo, very loud) men sat in the congregation and BELTED out (very well) the "main theme" of the choir's music. I would have been quite glad to chime in too, if I had known the music and spoke Ukrainian. The music and liturgy were quite beautiful. (part of me thinks that it was more beautiful than my beloved traditional Latin rite)

I claim no expertise, just offer a few thoughts.

In Christ,

Marcus

Dear Latin Visitor,

I too understand your comments about singing. My own parish - well let's say it tries to sing and some of our hymns are not too bad. They seem to take years , literally, to learn something new.

However I have to say that the best congregational participation I have come across has been in the Ukrainian Churches - oh agreed I have only experenced 2 , but they really do sing.

Recently I was in London , in the UGCC Cathedral there - and on the Sunday it was full - every pew filled , extra chairs brought in, and in use, and folk standing, possibly 5 deep. You could hardly move . But oh when the people responded - they certainly did - everyone sang and my heart lifted with their voices and by the end of Liturgy I was joining in with the responses [ and I have no Ukrainian either ] but those wonderful voices drew you in. Oh and the choir were not singing - it was just wonderful Congregational singing in wonderful deeply loved harmonies.

The only singing that I think that can come even close to that is the singing in the chapels in Wales where they also sing in wonderful 4 part harmony.

Anhelyna

Might I suggest - particularly for those who understand French - obtaining the excellent CDs available from the Eglise Catholique Orthodoxe de France, Cathedrale St. Irenee, Paris? The Gallican Liturgy in their Use is an interesting encounter between East and West, and the music is both fascinating and magnificent. Incognitus

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!

For those who are not familiar with the Orthodox Church of France, this is a jurisdiction which is Western in Rite, but Eastern Orthodox in its line of succession.

The "rite" is an amalgam of the ancient Gallican use of northern France with elements of the Roman rite and the Byzantine rite.

The chant is, understandably, also an amalgam, of "Gregorian" chant with Byzantine and Mozarabic chant, all structured and harmonized by Eugraph Kovalevsky in a handsome way. This must have also been quite an influence on Andre Gouze, O.P., who has done quite a bit of similar work in the Roman Rite in France.

For musical interest alone, it's quite worth hearing.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Christ is Baptized for our salvation! In the Jordan!

Dear Marcus, the short answer is there are none. Every parish has different ways of doing things, even within the same eparchy. And the reality is when someone tries to promulgate "norms", it generally doesn't go very far past the Cathedral as every cantor and every congregation have developed their own ways of doing things.

There are so many variations on this topic, literlly varying from parish to parish for both Greek Catholic and Orthodox parishes.

Often for both Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes, it depends on the size of the parish. Many smaller parishes rely on congregational singing. On the other hand, if a large parish has enough singers to form a choir, they often do so.

In larger Greek Catholic parishes with the practice (or malpractice depending on your point of view) of multiple Sunday Liturgies, you may find that even within one parish one particular Liturgy has a choral Liturgy, and another Liturgy has congregational singing. This is true for both the UGCC and the BCC.

Incog's suggestions is well taken. I have one CD of this series and it is very nice. There is also a CD collection called "Sublime Chant" by the Cathedral Singers which is a nice mixture of Gregorian, Ambrosian, and Gallican chants.

Didn't St John Maximovich play a great role in establishing the Orthodox Church of France??

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!

Dear Brian,

Yes, St. John of San Francisco had an immense amount to do with the organization that became the Orthodox Church of France. But I think that this is the subject for a totally new thread!<G>

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA