www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Old/New Calendar

Unless I dreamed the whole thing up, in one thread Alex and OOD were reluctant to start a thread on the Old/New Calendar issue. Since I like a good fight, I will now break with all thoughts of caution and prudence, and open up this can of worms. :p

In all seriousness...

What's really the issue? I know the Orthodox use the Julian Calendar, the Catholics use the Gregorian, and other groups make some sort of compromise.

In the Syrian Orthodox Church, for example, we use the Gregorian calendar for fixed feasts, and the Orthodox dates for Easter and the moveable feasts. But in India, the Orthodox got permission to use the Gregorian calendar for both, so that all Christians celebrated on the same day. This leads to a situation where we all (the Arab Church and the Indian Church) celebrate Christmas on the same day, but not Easter.

Now that my example of compromise is out there...

What is at issue here? It seems that the way some Eastern Orthodox people carry on about how the New Calendar is undesireable, you'd think they thought Jesus gave us the Old Calendar, and the new one came from the evil one. And then there are those moderate Orthodox who won't go that far perhaps, but will say that the West needs to adopt the Orthodox calendar for Easter. Why this insistence on the Orthodox calendar for all? What's so special about this calendar? With all the more important issues one could zero in on, why does the calendar present such a problem?

Dear Catholicos,

Actually, the issue included the Old Calendar(ists) and also the reasons why they went into schism from world Orthodoxy, including, if I am not mistaken, the ecumenicalist heresy of the Ecumenical Patriarch, a number of other statements from Orthodox Patriarchs that "prove beyond a doubt" that they are heretics, Rome - I'll give you three guesses what they think about Rome - Byzantine Catholics - I'll give you two guesses - and so on and so forth.

If it was only about the Old Calendar, then I wouldn't have any problem.

Then of course those who follow the new calendar are in heresy and schism at the same time (kidding guys - don't mean to upset your pre-Lenten recipe contest!).

I won't be participating here, Catholicos. Nothing personal, it's just that when I am considered a heretical schismatic, well, I take it kinda personal-like.

What is even more important - what are you doing for Mardi Gras?

Alex

I'm no expert on the calendar issue.

The fact is both calendars coexist in the Orthodox communion and even within jurisdictions, such as the OCA. The OCA churches in Alaska — conservative Russian-Aleut creoles? — are Julian. I was told by someone once that there have been new-calendar churches in ROCOR but I never have confirmed that. (ROCOR and the MP historically have had Western Rite groups in them too — former "Old Catholics'.)

I think the calendar thing is an nonissue except I am an authenticity nut — it's part of the culture. Jan. 7 Christmas is kind of cool — a connection to the Old World. Before the 1950s, in America ALL Byzantine Catholics used the Julian calendar and Orthodox paschalion. In the old country they still do! Ukrainian Catholics in America have a few churches on the Julian calendar and Orthodox paschalion (I think the two calendar issues are not related). I would like to see all new-calendar groups that now are on the Western paschalion (namely, US Byzantine Catholics) revert to the Orthodox paschalion. That's what the OCA does and I'm cool with it. Our Lady of Fatima Russian Catholic Church in San Francisco is too (they follow OCA usage).

The only Orthodox Church I know of on the Western paschalion is the Church of Finland, and I think that's because they are compelled to be by law, perhaps as part of the law that makes them a state church (1% of the Finnish population) alongside the Lutheran Church that nominally is 99% of the Finnish people.

http://oldworldrus.com

Bless me a sinner, Reader Serge!

And Estonia's Orthodox Church follows Finland's lead as well.

It is funny that the Assyrian Church has a schism based solely on the Calendar issue.

My parish celebrates according to two calendars. The priest was tired of it and called my daddy-in-law in to give him a piece of his mind.

As invariably happens with Nestor, they are now following one calendar - the Old Calendar.

He is really intransigent you know . . .

Alex

I would not be opposed to adopting the Orthodox pachalian, but the only problem is that in some years then there is no Apostle's Fast!

anastasios

Phil,

The (Orthodox) Church has always believed that it alone is the Body of Christ, pure in doctrine, and the sole Ark of Salvation. You can witness this attitude and understanding in all of the letters, documents, Synods, encyclicals, and thought of the Church and it's Holy Fathers because it is in fact Holy Tradition.

In 1920 began the movement toward the heresy of Ecumenism, which is really Syncretism – the belief that no one Church is complete or contains all of the Truth as Christ promised but rather that other “churches” contain pieces of the Truth and that the Church was broken, dismembered, and fragmented. It is in fact a very Protestant notion.

The beginning of this movement was marked by the Encyclical of 1920 when it was announced that heterodox communities were “co-inheritors, which make up one body and are partakers of God's promises in Christ."

Just over a year later, the uncanonically elected “Patriarch” Meletius of Constantinople, the father of "mainstream Orthodoxy", the man who was evicted from the Holy Land by Patriarch Damianos (along with the then administrator Chrysostomos, later Archbishop of Athens in 1908) for "activity against the Holy Sepulcher", the man who was a Freemason, the man who in 1922 accepted the validity of Anglican orders, the man who only after being expelled from the Phanar on July 1, 1923 for “innovations” was uncanonically elected the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 1926. But not before he successfully forced the New Calendar their.

As “Patriarch” in Alexandria, "at the cost of disapproval and division," Meletius instituted the New Calendar again. While still "Patriarch" of Constantinople he had established ties with the Russian "Living Church." The synod of the "Living Church" wrote on the occasion of the election of Meletius as Patriarch of Alexandria, "The Holy Synod [of the renovationists] recall with sincere best wishes the moral support which Your Beatitude showed us while you were yet Patriarch of Constantinople by entering into communion with us as the only rightfully ruling organ of the Russian Orthodox Church."

Finally, although critically ill, Meletius offered himself as a candidate for Patriarch of Jerusalem, but no election took place.

Metropolitan Methodius Kondostanos wrote, "This exile from the Holy Land, from Kition, from Athens, from Constantinople, Meletius Metaxakis — an unstable, restless, power-hungry spirit, an evil demon — had no qualms about grabbing for the Throne of Jerusalem even from Alexandria in his desire to extend himself."

After Mr. Meletius Metaxakis died on in 1935, the man he was exiled with from Jerusalem with, Chrysostomos, was installed by the Greek Government as “Archbishop” of Athens who then instituted the New Calendar there.

But this was just the sad beginning Phil. Since then, there has been brutal repression of the Old Calendar in Greece while they increase their syncretistic activities and scandals year by year.

And for what? So they can move closer to a sycretistic convergence.

And for those who would call us “Old Calendarists” schismatics, I will only offer them the Apostolic Constitutions:

"…those who set up unlawful opinions are marks of perdition to the people. In like manner, do not you of the laity come near to such as advance doctrines contrary to the mind of God; nor be you partakers of their impiety. For says God: 'Separate yourselves from the midst of these men, lest you perish together with them.' And again: 'Depart from the midst of them, and separate yourselves, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you.' "

And later the constitution includes a powerful exhortation commanding us to avoid the communion of impious Heretics and especially those of the End Times: "…Eschew the antheistical heretics, who are past repentance, and separate them from the faithful, and excommunicate them from the Church of God, and charge the faithful to abstain entirely from them, and not to partake with them either in sermons or prayers: for these are those that are enemies to the Church, and lay snares for it; who corrupt the flock, and defile the heritage of Christ, pretenders only to wisdom, and the vilest of men; concerning whom Solomon the wise said: "The wicked doers pretend to act piously." For, says he, "there is a way which seemeth right to some, but the ends thereof look to the bottom of hell." These are they concerning whom the Lord declared His mind with bitterness and severity, saying that "they are false Christs and false teachers; " who have blasphemed the Spirit of grace, and done despite to the gift they had from Him after the grace of baptism, "to whom forgiveness shall not be granted, neither in this world nor in that which is to come; " who are both more wicked than the Jews and more atheistical than the Gentiles; who blaspheme the God over all, and tread under foot His Son, and do despite to the doctrine of the Spirit; who deny the words of God, or pretend hypocritically to receive them, to the affronting of God, and the deceiving of those that come among them; who abuse the Holy Scriptures, and as for righteousness, they do not so much as know what it is; who spoil the Church of God, as the "little foxes do the vineyard; " whom we exhort you to avoid, lest you lay traps for your own souls. "For he that walketh with wise men shall be wise, but he that walketh with the foolish shall be known." For we ought neither to run along with a thief, nor put in our lot with an adulterer….For concerning them did the prophet declare, and say: "It is not lawful to rejoice with the ungodly," says the Lord. For these are hidden wolves, dumb dogs, that cannot bark, who at present are but few, but in process of time, when the end of the world draws nigh, will be more in number and more troublesome, of whom said the Lord, "Will the Son of man, when He comes, find faith on the earth? " and, "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold; "and, "There shall come false Christ's and false prophets, and shall show signs in the heaven, so as, if it were possible, to deceive the elect:" from whose deceit God, through Jesus Christ, who is our hope, will deliver us".

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

In Slovakia, the large majority of Byzantine Catholic parishes use the Gregorian Calendar (and western Paschalion). However, they are not forced to. The parish which is next to my ancestral villages includes three villages/churches: one village is Julian, the other two are Gregorian. With the same pastor.

I presume they all celebrate Pascha at the same time, but maybe not... Julian calendar for fixed feasts but not the eastern Pascha? How strange would that be?

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

OoD,

In 1920 began the movement toward the heresy of Ecumenism, which is really Syncretism – the belief that no one Church is complete or contains all of the Truth as Christ promised but rather that other “churches” contain pieces of the Truth and that the Church was broken, dismembered, and fragmented. It is in fact a very Protestant notion.

Syncretism is heresy, but there is nothing wrong with recognizing that other groups have parts of the truth. What's wrong is when one believes NO one group has the truth sufficiently to be the Church. The notion that the Church is broken up into contradictory sects is Protestant.

Catholicism holds the Catholic communion is the Church in its fullness — the Latin from Vatican II says the Church fully subsistit in it — but that the Orthodox are also true apostolic Churches, though outside that communion, and that Protestants and indeed non-Christians can know some of the truth.

Eastern Orthodoxy likewise holds dogmatically it is the true Church but does not dogmatize about anyone else, except for heresies condemned at ecumenical councils and obvious things like denying the Real Presence in the Eucharist (never a problem in the East). No ecumenical council has damned postschism Catholicism, so like it or not, Orthodoxy has not dogmatized thus.

The notion that only Latinitas under the Pope or Byzantium (Eastern Orthodoxy) alone is the true Church seems to come more from rivalry between two now-long, long-gone empires (been to Istanbul lately?) than from anything dogmatically worth taking seriously. The filioque has been explained away. The only roadblock is the postschism Catholic papal claims, which in practice exalt the Roman Church over other apostolic Churches.

The Anglicans are Protestants, objectively cut off from the Church, but the high-church faction has a point with its branch theory, that what the apostolic Churches have in common FAR outweighs their differences in culture and expression. This commonality of belief is the Vincentian canon: quod semper et ubique et ab omnibus.

The beginning of this movement was marked by the Encyclical of 1920 when it was announced that heterodox communities were “co-inheritors, which make up one body and are partakers of God's promises in Christ."

Co-inheritors, making up one body? In the case of Protestant bodies, no. In the case of apostolic Churches, yes.

Patriarch Meletios may have been a Mason, etc., in the 1920s, but that has nothing to do with astronomical accuracy determined in the 1600s!

It seems this argument against the Gregorian calendar is, "Don't use it simply because heterodox do'. (Just like heretical England's no-popery made it resist the new calendar for decades — Protestant England was not Orthodox!) Well, heterodox invented and perfected the machine on which I write. I am not about to toss it out the window for that reason.

Yes, the world's largest Orthodox Church, the maligned Church of Russia, is old-calendar. But its daughter Church in America, the OCA, is largely new-calendar. The two are in communion. It's a nonissue.

Dustin,

Culturally I am a purist and now I know the SS. Peter and Paul Fast is for the Church, etc., but I don't think God minds if one fasts three instead of four times a year as long as one benefits somehow from whatever fasting one does. Such is the essence of Orthodox fasting.

RichC,

In Slovakia, the large majority of Byzantine Catholic parishes use the Gregorian Calendar (and western Paschalion). However, they are not forced to. The parish which is next to my ancestral villages includes three villages/churches: one village is Julian, the other two are Gregorian. With the same pastor.

I understand the Prešov eparchy under Bishop Jan (Hirka) is extremely latinized (beyond Nicholas Elko approaching a Byzantine Novus Ordo), far more so than the US, in fact, while Košice under Bishop Milan (Chautur) is not.

Julian calendar for fixed feasts but not the eastern Pascha? How strange would that be?

Bizarro, culturally, but I imagine possible.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Serge,

Sorry if I miss any of your points - I have a tendency to pick and choose the ones that "connect" and this is a really sore subject for me.

Do you really think the calendar was reformed for astronomical accuracy? If so, then why did'nt they use modern data which is much more accurate than even Pope Gregory had? Because it would have been a different calendar is why.

Do you really think we resist because we say, "Don't use it simply because heterodox do'

Can one imagine anything worse for the Church than a break in liturgical concord which estranges us spiritually not only from the triumphant Church of those who have fallen asleep in Christ, and from the Saints who celebrated and performed the Liturgy according to the old calendar which they rejected?

So many efforts of our Fathers, so many synods were needed to enact that festal calendar - and all this so that there would be liturgical harmony between the Christian churches, because this harmony and accord expresses the internal liturgical unity of the Church. This is what makes the Church visibly one, despite the multiplicity of local churches. The Church is not made one the way the Pope thinks, by hard discipline and obedience to a prescribed hierarchy which has as its head a single individual, but the Church is made one by the mystical communion in the Body and Blood of Christ. Every church where the Holy Eucharist is performed and where the faithful are gathered "in the same place" comprises the whole image of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. What makes one parish comprise one body with all other parishes, and one diocese comprise one body with all other dioceses, is the mystical communion of all in the Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit and truth.

The unity of the Church, therefore, is a mystical bond which is forged during the Holy Eucharist when the faithful partake of the Body and Blood of Christ. Christians are one body, those who live upon the earth today and those who have lived before us in past centuries, and also those who will live in the years to come; and this is because we have a common root, the Body of Christ. "We many are one bread, one body, for we all partake of the one Bread".

The tragedy of this discord is difficult to conceive of in this country because of the distances. But it becomes painfully perceptible to one who travels to Europe and sees in the neighborhoods of the same city the Russians celebrating one holiday and the Greeks another, or one hears the bells of the Greek church calling the faithful while the bells of the Russian church remain silent. And then one asks himself if both churches are Orthodox.

The unity of the Church, therefore, is not administrative, is not disciplinary or organizational, but liturgical. That is why the festal calendar is so important. The Church does not care about astronomical accuracy.

Serge,

I did want to respond to this...

"that what the apostolic Churches have in common FAR outweighs their differences in culture and expression."

Making a strident point that I mean no offense...

It seems that the world has discovered that the Holy Fathers not only misunderstood theological terminology, but were influenced, not by the Holy Spirit, but by the spirit of the times: that is,
by such factors as ethnic, political, and economic rivalry and in-trigue.

In a nutshell, the World has determined that it was the Holy Fathers that led the Church astray and not the heretics. That is was the Holy Fathers who were influenced by the times and not them, the would-be victims of these sick times.

Have mercy on us all Lord God!

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Maybe I'm nuts, but when I watch the sunrise and the sunset, I know only that it's another "day".

I know that the Church determined that Pascha should be celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring. Unfortunately, the Church didn't realize that this could be different depending upon where you lived. (The equinox varies depending upon latitude.)

In addition, it was clear that Julius Caesar and his minions, established a calendar based upon their best observations of 2,000 years ago. Unfortunately, they only had slide-rules and hourglasses to make the determinations. So, they came up with something that was "good", but not really accurate.

Pope Gregory's minions realized that there was something wrong. They did their best to come up with something accurate. We know it as the Gregorian calendar. Most of the Christian world (excluding certain Protestants who thought it was a Papist plot-- but not the ever scientific Germans!!!) accepted the updating.

Now, we've got atomic clocks; we've got solar frameworks, we've even got GPS and other newbie stuff.

Why can't we just follow the lead of science; use our 'principles' of dating events, and agree that we'll use the equinox at Jerusalem (hey, it's Christ's deathsite) and determine the celebration based upon that rather than play the "my calendar is better than your calendar" game?

We Christians too often shoot ourselves in the foot and do really damnable stupid things to both ourselves and our presence in the to-be-missionized world. They think we're nuts because we can't even get the damnable date right! This ISN'T Christianity. It's petty pride and a piece of the 'one-ups-manship' game. It it not only tragic, but a sin since it allows the outsiders to see us as a divided community.

Let the scientists do their thing; let the historical theologians do their thing; let them come to a conclusion (as they have done!) and let's all just do what is in the best interest of spreading the Gospel and NOT the exclusionary BS that the calendar issue might foment.

Sorry to be so blunt; but I just think that this calendar stuff is just nuts. It allows folks to say either this or that and to justify separation based upon either good or bad science.

Is this what Christ taught us? Come on, folks, we have bigger fish to fry!!!!

Blessings, y'all!!!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I have spoken with many Orthodox Priests in my 16 years in the Church. It is ironic that most, but not all, would rather the use of the Old Calendar for several reasons:
1) The elimination of one reason for schism in the Holy Orthodox Church jurisdictions.
2) The seperation of the sacred from the secular---for example a spiritual Christmas as compared to the comercial Christmas surrounding us.
3)With the use of the Eastern paschalion, the actual use of the Gregorian calendar seems superfluous.

One may ask then , why, do they stay within "new calendar" Churches? To them the Calendar is not the issue but orthodoxy "the True" Faith and worship. They observe the "new Calendar" because the Parish they serve wishes it that way and they are obedient to their Bishops and their parish councils. It is interesting that within the GOA, Antiochian, OCA, and other "canonical" Orthodox jurisdictions, it is actually the parish that selects the calendar and petitions the Bishop to observe that in their parish--as a result , although few in number in the continental US there are Old Calendar communities within the jurisdictions. There are two Old Calendar GOA Parishes (one of whose building was destroyed on 9-11) one in NY and one in Texas that I am aware of. The GOA Diocesian Paper always notes the old calendar Christmas and Theophany and frequently the Archbishop serves at the Liturgy for these at the Old Calendar Churches thus showing to the GOA at large that old calendar churches are in their in the GOA.

I remain your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Dear Dr. John,

AMEN !!!

Now that you have solved the Easter problem, may I throw the Nativity into the pot?

As a Polish Ukrainian hybrid, I grew up with two Christmases and it was kind of cool to have the last decorations on the block. And to sing Koliady until the end of January. Alas, I didn't get a second round of presents - we were too poor to pay attention. However, I still can be heard singing carols all year.

I have never considered myself the least bit Orthodox. But as things have changed over the years, with the commercialization of Christmas, I've come to the thought that the best solution for the Calendar problem is for Rome to return to the Julian Calendar.

With Christmas on January 7th, we will separate ourselves from the great pagan festival of the winter solstice. We will also present the world with a more unified Church.

The Protestants then will have to decide what to do - follow the Pope?
Stick with the money changers?
Or fragment into another 10,000 denominations?

Just a little rabble-rousing.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dr. John,

The demons conspire for the indifference you speak of because this is the mood in which the seal of the Antichrist will be accepted.

Sounds pretty corny?

Christmas on Januray 7th?!!! What?!!!
Impossible!!!

This is me being difficult. Christmas is not on January 7th, no matter what calendar you follow.

This is also an excellent way to lead up to what I was going to say. Personally, I am on the Old Calendar (Julian), so please don't take this the wrong way all you Old-Calendarists:

How can we use the Old Calendar? What day is it today? Think about it. No one lives on the Julian calendar in today's society (except on Mt. Athos or some place like that). Therefore we are leading double lives; we have one calendar for our regular lives and one when we enter church. We are being two-faced. We must live a Christian life all of our lives, not just on Sundays and Holy Days when we are in Church, and if we switch from one day to another when we walk out of church, then that's what we are doing. Ideally we would live on the Julian Calendar, but that's impossible today. The only viable option is the Gregorian calendar which is also known by some as the "secular" calendar (I can see your point).

Now it may seem that I am trying to get all of us to switch suddenly -- and maybe I am -- but I know that it is impossible, so I understand that it won't happen. Union is better than disunion. But let's get it right before we have Christmas in July!

To paraphrase Archimandrite Robert (Taft), let's get us some telescopes!

Daniil