www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Old/New Calendar

The New Calendar has divided the Orthodox world, which is obviously a negative thing. Our church (GOA) tries to accomodate parishioners of both persuasions, which is terribly confusing. On the morning of Jan. 6, we had Theophany, at night, a Christmas celebration. This is so confusing for me. I love having Chrismas Jan. 7, because it's easier to shop for gifts (the crowds have long since dwindled), and it's easier to get the day off of work.

Is the New Calendar propaganda to Protestantize the East? I dunno, but I am suspicious.

Hello Friends!

While this isn't exactly relevant to the topic of religion, I figure I'll go ahead anyway.

Since my life and passion is astrophysics, I have devoted much time and energy to studies of our universe.

In the realm of space, (and due to the speed of light), various galaxial events occur on a second by second basis. Since the speed of light is so slow, we can only observe these events when they reach our eye. As such, often times scientists wait years, decades or even centuries to observe phenomenon. A good common example would be Haley's comet.

Because of this, 'time' is the most important quantity in any physical system, including our universe. To calculate time, we need an efficient method. The calendar system has changed much over the past, especially since it is very inconsistant between dates prior to the year 1 as well as after. Furthermore, there is no year 0, and our current calendar has leap years which make for an incredibly difficult time!

As such, us scientists use the Julian Calender because it allows us to simply count the days in consecutive order. All days are numbered consecutively from Julian Day 0, which began at noon on January 1, 4713 BC.

I could elaborate longer, and if anyone wishes to discuss this topic further(maybe you have an interest in astronomy or astrophysics) I'd love to take it further, as our galaxy is indeed fascinating.

Nevertheless, the Julian calendar is a very important part of our history, and also very necessary!!

Toodles,
Dr. Bob

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

Dear Dr.Bob,

Thank you for such a wonderful contribution to the calendar discussion.

I am very open-minded about the Old Calendar - as long as everyone uses it . . .

Just love y'a, Doc, just love y'a!

Alex

The issues surrounding the old vs. new calendar are much deeper today than simply finding out which calendar you use because the term "Old Calendarist" has taken on new meaning.

"Old Calendarist" today means "Traditionalist" to identify those who have separted themselves from the innovators and those who are "self-condemned" and have tryed to force their personal opinions on the Church. Just because one uses the "Old Calendar" does not mean he/she cares even in the least for the traditions of the Church. ROCOR would be considered "Old Calendarist" while the MP would not, even though they both use it - in a sense anyway.


Daniil,

Mt. Athos is not the only place "like that". Most Russians don't even know a new calendar exists much less use it. So in the Orthodox world, if majority rules, then all should return to the old calendar.

It is not difficult to use two calendars but for one who has never done so it may seem hard. After all, no matter what anybody says, there will always be Church time and secular time.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Get out the tabouleh . . .

Alex

It has been said here that they corrected the calendar purely for astronomical reasons. They said that it was embarrassing to follow an antiquated, inaccurate calendar. Very well. The Church, however, is certainly not concerned with the astronomical accuracy of the calendar, but only with the liturgical and festal union and order of the local churches. Even so, let us suppose that those people truly labored on behalf of scientific accuracy.

Why then did they not correct the calendar according to the scientific data available in the twentieth century? Rather, they implemented an equally inaccurate calendar dating from the sixteenth century, the calendar of Pope Gregory. Why did they not implement the one which Peter Dragich had carefully computed and which was submitted to the so-called Pan-Orthodox meeting of Constantinople in 1923? Simply because the real reason was not a scientific correction of the calendar, which would have been a completely useless undertaking from an ecclesiastical point of view. The real purpose of the calendar change was to effect a festal union of the “churches,” which could be actualized only with the Orthodox adoption of the Gregorian calendar of the Latins
and Protestants, so that all would have the same festal calendar, and so that the first stage of Syncretism (wrongly called Ecumenism), “the union of the so-called Christian Churches” could begin.

It is not, therefore, out of some kind of pathological love for thirteen lost days that the traditional Orthodox Christians broke ecclesiastical communion with the innovating church, but rather in order that they might remain Orthodox. New Calendarism equals Syncretism, equals a rejection of the Truth, a rejection of the One, Holy Church, a rejection of Holy Tradition, a rejection of the continual presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church. The new-calendarists declared the festal order of the Church Fathers to be in error; they overturned the festal relation between the Paschal cycle and immovable feasts; they abolished fasts; they changed immovable feasts to movable ones (for example, the feast of Saint George); they destroyed the festal harmony and unity of the Church of Greece with the other Orthodox Churches which did not charge the festal calendar. They did all this in order to concelebrate with the the West. They preferred to keep festival even though the rest of their brethren labored in fasting. What happened to the decisions of the Councils of 1583, of 1587, and of 1593, which repeatedly had “excommunicated all those who would accept the Gregorian changes?” They acted as if those Councils were unknown to them, or rather, they impudently ignored them.

We labor, therefore, to remain Orthodox in the face of the contemporary heresy of Sycretism (Ecumenism), which has corroded almost every acre of "mainstream Orthodoxy".

If I am wrong for struggling to stay in communion and agreement with the great Saints and Confessors of the Church who are alive in Christ, then I at least stand with good company.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Alex,

They got out the tabouleh for St. John the Forerunner, because it just seemed that a man living in the wilderness was not "mainstream" enough for them...

They got out the tabouleh for Noah, after all, what kind of a crazy man would build a boat where there was no water...

They got out the tabouleh for Jesus, He was just not part of the "establishment" and only disunited mobs followed Him...

They got out the tabouleh for Moses, after all, how could one crazy man free all of these slaves...

They got out the tabouleh for David, because they thought for sure he would be slaughtered at the thick fortified walls...

Better watch where that tabouleh is going next Alex...because it has already been fortold that the tabouleh will be brought out for Enoch and Elijah...

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Dear OrthodoxOrDeath,

I have no problem with the Traditionalists Orthodox following whatever calendar they choose. The Latin Catholic community in certain Orthodox countries has even adopted the dominate Orthodox date for Easter.

I think Paul VI rightly suggested that for the Catholic communion, we should, in humility, follow whatever calendar the greater number of Christians in a given society follow.

Kurt

Kurt,

I like this Latin teaching. If you are ever in my neighborhood we would love to have you and your family pay us a visit.

Orthodoxy or death:

You really get off on extreme tangents sometimes!

The 1923 Synod did not put in the Gregorian calendar to create synchretism (no one has ever explained well to me how using the same calendar promotes one-religion anyway!)

They did it because the Church was asked by the goverments to switch since it would be easier for business transactions. plain and simple.

anastasios
Who doesn't want to be having nativity in july!

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: anastasios ]

Dear Orthodoxy or Death:

have you read "Orthodox fundamentalists: a critical view" by Fr. John Morris? Good book. I don't like what he says about cassocks, but the calendar chapter is good.

anastasios

Dr. Bob,

I am very interested in scientists and the Julian calendar. please elaborate.

anastasios

Anastasios,

What a great name, how many here understand what it means?

Business transactions? I have'nt heard that one. So why force the calendar down the mouth of the Church? Was the love of the drachma that great that they would arrest and beat priests, burn down churches, and let people rot in prison? The Old Calendar side-by-side with the new works fine.

I don't read books like the one you mention. There are books to tell every sort of story to win you over to every way of thinking. Want to beleive in voodoo witch doctors? Well then, go get yourself some books that illustrate all of the eyewitness acounts. Want to believe in UFO's, well then, go get yourself a book that "proves" it. Want to believe Jesus was not really God? Well then, just go to your local Jewish library or turn on the TV during another "Jesus special". But if you want to know the mind of the Church, then read the Holy Fathers because they empirically know just how fundemental everyone needs to be.

OrthodoxyorDeath:

Hello!

Thank you for the compliment on the name. I don't know how many people here know what my name means: hint, it's the biggest feast of the year!

I am very troubled by your statement that you "don't read books like that." Brother, you need to open your eyes to other points of view. I find that doing such only strengthens my own point of view. I wanted to study some Islam, so I started reading the Koran and found my faith in Christ and his Church strengthened!

God gave you reasoning funtions. The Holy Fathers used their reasoning functions, too. Some things, like UFO's and witch doctors, are obviously crazy and you can easily determine that. Other things, like understand the calendar issue, are harder to discern but God gives us the ability. You need to read both sides's work, not just one side's, or else you might get an unbalanced point of view. You need to study pros and cons. The New Calendarists have valid reasoning to adopt the New Calendar: did you think they were all stupid anti-Christians who picked it for no good reason? Why not read why they decided to do so?

One point in Fr. Morris's book is that the Holy Fathers used the Julian calendar because it was the calendar the state used then. We used the Gregorian calendar, so we should use it in church, too.

Another point is that the Calendar was that if we use one calendar in church but another on the street, how are we really sanctifying our time? For instance, we are celebrating Christmas at a time that the rest are not, so are we really witnessing Christ's birth?

But you'd have to read the book to get the full information AND SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. Then you could see for yourself.

I would even photocopy the chapter for you! I don't totally agree with him, since I am somewhat traditionalist myself, but I think it is VERY important to read the other side! Don't get one-sided my friend! Question your sources, too!

In Christ,

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

I will give you a short answer to your question, as I do not wish to go entirely off-topic here in this forum.

In science, as you have probably studied, consistancy and standardization are absolute musts. How can one measure a 'cup' of water if there are varied definitions on the size of a 'cup'?

When dealing in the realm of astrophysics and space, one needs standard and extremely precise measurements.

Without entering into the realm of 'chaos theory' and 'chaos mathematics', I will simply state that we are limited in the fact that we have to use earth measurements(ie the rotation of our planet) to measure events that occur off of earth. If you think about this for a minute, you will realize how illogical it is. What if an alien from another planet asked about the occurance of a particular event. We would be at a most definite loss for an answer.

The current Gregorian calendar has two vital flaws. Namely, it lacks a year 0 AD, and it possesses an occurance that we all know as 'leap years'. Even though the infamous February 29th occurs rarely, it can throw astronomical calculations years, decade or millenia off of balance. There are other nuances as well. My computer literate friends also inform me it is incredibly easier to work with the Julian Calendar when writing computer programs than the Gregorian.

While the Julian isn't perfect, it is a lot more consistant. First of all, it has a set in stone start date, the days begin at noon, it has a year 0, and there are no leap years. In an scientific point of view it is very consistant.

From a personal and academic standpoint, I feel the Julian and Gregorian are both inferior. As technologically advanced humans, we must start thinking out of the box, and we should compose a universal time system not based on our planet's revolution around the sun. Already progress has been made in this field, but conclusive results are a long way off.

Hopefully this gave you some insight, sorry it was so long!!

Toodles,
Dr. Bob