www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Old/New Calendar

Dear Dr. Bob,

Up to now, all that I've read about the Julian Calendar is about how flawed it is and how, in the interests of scientific progress, the Gregorian calendar must be adopted.

You are a Godsend!

Thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge.

Although I am a believer, your wonderful person is really beyond belief . . .

Alex

Anastasios,

I agree with some of what you wrote...

"I am very troubled by your statement that you "don't read books like that." Brother, you need to open your eyes to other points of view. "

Of course I read many other things which is why I said what I said. After encountering all of the many viewpoints I have come to realize that there are seemingly credible arguments for just about everything. But to distinguish truth from lies, I only trust the Holy Fathers and I doubt they would agree with the author of your book, albeit I never read it and can only guess the subject matter by it's title. Was that a run-on sentence?


"God gave you reasoning funtions. The Holy Fathers used their reasoning functions, too."

I could'nt agree more. Which is why I only follow Orthodox bishops

"One point in Fr. Morris's book is that the Holy Fathers used the Julian calendar because it was the calendar the state used then. We used the Gregorian calendar, so we should use it in church, too."

This is what I mean. On the surface that may be true, but those days are indeed gone. I doubt that the Fathers ever cared about the smooth functioning of the business world over the unity of the Church. After so many synods and gatherings of the fathers to enact the Festal Calendar of the Church, I doubt they would EVER agree to have half of the Church use one calendar and the other half another. So unless there is consensus in Orthodoxy, the Calendar should remain the same for the sake of unity.


"Another point is that the Calendar was that if we use one calendar in church but another on the street, how are we really sanctifying our time? For instance, we are celebrating Christmas at a time that the rest are not, so are we really witnessing Christ's birth?"

What's more important for the Orthodox, to all celebrate it together as Orthodox Christians or break that unity to blend in better with what everyone else is doing these days?

I find it amazing how so many people can be enchanted with the deep sense of spirituality in the Orthodox Church and it's sense of tradition, but at first chance are willing to throw it all away, piece by piece.

Mt. Athos is not the only place "like that". Most Russians don't even know a new calendar exists much less use it.

That can't be true! I know that before the Revolution, the Russian Government was on the Julian Calendar, but since then they have adopted the Gregorian. What I meant was a place where today is January 17th and that's that! Both in church and out of church.

It is not difficult to use two calendars but for one who has never done so it may seem hard. After all, no matter what anybody says, there will always be Church time and secular time.

Wait a second. Firstly, who develpoed the Gregorian calendar? It was the Church.
Again, why should we use two different calendars? We should stick to one and not live two different lives.

Daniil

The following link might be of use:

Calculation of the Ecclesiastical Calendar [smart.net]

The site allows you to enter a year and will calculate the dates of the movable feasts (along with listing the fixed ones) for the Gregorian Calendar, Revised Julian Calendar and Traditional Julian Calendar. It also contains a lot of interesting information.

Suggestion: This discussion could use a post explaining in scientific terms the differences between the Julian Date, the Julian Calendar and the Gregorian Calendar. ISTM that some may be confusing Julian Date with Julian Calendar.

I found this reply [listserv.indiana.edu] from Bishop Tikhon very worthwhile.

Since I live in a Western country, I wish my Orthodox hierarchs would adopt the new calendar for all feasts. Instead of a church/civil calendar dichotomy, I would prefer the civil be transfigured by the church.

Hello Administrator,

I figured I had explained some of the scientific rationale behind the julian/gregorian calendar in my post above, but I am guessing you desire more specifics.
Don't say I didn't warn you!

The Julian Day begins at noon in Greenwich Mean Time. Clock time after noon is converted to a fraction of a day. Thus midnight GMT (12 hours beyond noon) is 0.5 day, while 1:00 P.M in London is 0.041666667 day (1/24th of a day). This fraction of a day beyond noon is added to the whole-number JD to compute the JD of any event or observation. Hence 1:00 PM in London on the date say, January 1st, 2002 will be JD 2451545.041666667. Most variable star observations are recorded to the nearest 0.0001 day (8.64 seconds)

It is very easy to compute back and forth, for instance.
Expressing the date at Y MD where Y = year, M = Month number, and D = Day
If the current month is Jan or Feb subtract 1 from the year to get a new Y, and add 12 to the month to get a new M.
Dropping the fractional part of all results of all multiplications and divisions, let

A = Y/100
B = A/4
C = 2-A+B
E = 365.25x(Y+4716)
F = 30.6001x(M+1)
JD= C+D+E+F-1524.5

This is the Julian Day Number for the beginning of the date in question at 0 hours, Greenwich time. Note that this always gives you a half day extra. That is because the Julian Day begins at noon, Greenwich time.

To convert a Julian Day Number to a Gregorian date, assume that it is for 0 hours, Greenwich time (so that it ends in 0.5). Do the following calculations:

Z = JD+0.5
W = (Z - 1867216.25)/36524.25
X = W/4
A = Z+1+W-X
B = A+1524
C = (B-122.1)/365.25
D = 365.25xC
E = (B-D)/30.6001
F = 30.6001xE
Day of month = B-D-F
Month = E-1 or E-13 (must get number less than or equal to 12)
Year = C-4715 (if Month is January or February) or C-4716 (otherwise)


Hope this was scientific enough.

Dr. Bob

PS If anyone enjoys the above math, I have some excellent book recommendations on linear algebra and planar physics.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

Daniil,

Oh yes indeed. the Russians do not use the Gregorian, they use the Julian. That's a fact. It is the 17th in Russia right now.

It has been my experience that many Russians are suprised to find out that there are "orthodox" on the New Calendar...

I'll have to defer your last question to others as I am not a member of the same organization as you.

Joseph,

Tikon is a pretty humorous fellow on the Ind. Listserv is'nt he.

I read that last month (don't look for any of my posts there as I just observe) and thought there was some merit to it, but not much (of course).

Putting all the ecclesiastical issues aside like he has...

1. ...I think having Christmas a day when most people would ask "why so late" makes Orthodoxy stand out, and spark peoples interest.

2. As was pointed out here by someone else earlier, all of the commercialization and funny men in red suits have a chance to disappear so we can get into the right frame of mind.

3. I don't have to worry about fasting on Thanksgiving.

4. Nobody expects a visit from my family on Christmas Eve when we are trying to get a nap to prepare for the all-night vigil nor do they expect to see us the next day.

huh???? I've been told I am a latinized ninny, but I never thought visiting your family on Christmas was not eastern.

Dr. Bob! Stop! STOP!!! Please, I can't take the math anymore!!

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Mor Ephrem ]

Kurt,

Not so much that it is not Eastern, just that here there is nobody else who considers Jan.7 (ns) Christmas and that therefore, we are free to sleep a little and celebrate the feast at the Church. In other words, Jan 7th is a non-event to most in the U.S.

[Linked Image]

This will be my final post on this topic

I have tried to state the position and case of the Church and I feel I have failed. While this particular topic is extremley important, it is not the sole issue which effects the divisions today.

For anyone who wishes to read a most excellent article that will most certainly put things in clear terms I strongly suggest the following...

The Touchstone [deltard.org]

You will need Acrobat Reader [Click Here] [adobe.com]

Dear Orthodoxyordeath:

If the Russians are on the Julian calender, then why did they celebrate new years on the same day that we did.

One of the first things the Soviets did was change the calender.

That I know for certain.

Daniil is right.


defreitas

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The Russian Civil Government is still on the Gregorian Calendar. The Russian Orthodox Moscow Patriarch is still under the Julian Calendar. January 1 New Years is a Civil Holiday---Orthodox New Years is in September.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Thomas wrote: "...Orthodox New Years is in September..."

Then why do the Serbs and Ukrainians and Bulgars and Macedonians all have big "New Years Eve" parties on Jan 13th????

mark